I think a whole lot of LACs have the opportunity for independent study. So, @nostalgicwisdom, brings up a good point - Is Williams’ tutorial program that big of a deal? Or is it just good marketing?
I really hate rankings. There. I’ve said it. The rankings methodologies are the furthest think from science and as much as I dislike all rankings, I think the LACs are particularly difficult to rank. The students that apply to many of these schools are, generally speaking, much more focused on fit than rank. The applicants for many of these schools are self-selective to begin with due to fit. Looking at Prezbucky’s list for the ‘top 10’:
- Williams
- Amherst, Pomona, Swarthmore
- Bowdoin, Middlebury, Wellesley
- Carleton, Haverford
- Smith, Vassar, Wesleyan
I can say from the perspective of a parent whose son looked at many of these schools, he wouldn’t even consider applying to Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin and Middlebury due to an athletic feel at those schools. Additionally, Williams and Middlebury were too remote. Wellesley and Smith are all female schools so clearly out went those. Wesleyan he disliked the location/campus. Swarthmore he deeply disliked what he perceived as hubris. So, of these ’ top 12" only Pomona, Carelton and Haverford remained on his final college list.
All of these schools have excellent academics and programs. To say that one is better than the next is like saying a golden retriever is better than a golden lab. It is a bit ridiculous. All are fantastic colleges, and all offer different atmospheres and opportunities. Let the Ivy obsessed focus on rankings, but we lovers of the LAC know it is all about fit. ;0)
My ranking was based on median ACT scores which for 2017 was a 33 at Hamilton - if not for the slightly more isolated location and the lack of admissions marketing from Hamilton, its acceptance rate would be much lower.
^^^ Median ACT scores for admitted students tend to be higher than enrolled students.
Looking at acceptance rates for schools for specific high schools can also be very misleading. For instance my high school would show a much higher acceptance rate for Hamilton @45% than your school shows.
@prezbucky - no I didn’t factor in Columbia or Penn with regard to my rankings for Barnard or Bryn Mawr, at least not consciously. But Barnard is much more entwined with Columbia, than BM is with Penn. My comments were based on what I perceive to be the breadth, depth and rigor at Barnard, which to me, puts it above Bryn Mawr.
@wisteria100, the problem with accepted vs admitted is that no school tells you which one they are using - actually very frustrating when comparing schools.
@Chembiodad
CDS stats are for enrolled students. Any avg scores for the current round of kids being reported by colleges right now is for admitted kids as enrollees are not yet final
Naviance data is useful for the kids at your school, but not so much for others. A quick look at mine and for the past 5 years we have these wacky admit rates
Hamilton 81%
Colby 77%
Holy Cross 56%
Bates 54%
Colgate 54%
Bucknell 50%
Richmond 46%
Bowdoin 33%
Midd 14%
Meaningless for the general population
@wisteria100, that’s my point as 2016-2017 Common Data Set test scores, both SAT and ACT, are exactly the same for both Hamilton and Middlebury - I think the top 10-12 LAC’s will all show similar results. Another example would be Swarthmore and Hamilton which are the same as well, albeit Swarthmore 1 point higher for the top 25%, but Hamilton 1 point higher for the bottom 25%.
"CDS stats are for enrolled students. "
At least they are supposed to. Haven’t a few schools gotten in trouble in recent years for playing a little fast and loose with the numbers? (Claremont, Emory, GW, for example)
I wouldn’t use ACT scores to judge/rank any East Coast based schools. Although ACT has gained popularity here, the SAT remains more popular and will give a more accurate read. A lot of students in the east only take the ACT if they aren’t doing will on the SAT, so I think that gives a certain bias to the ACT for certain schools drawing mainly from students in the northeast.
Just following up on @nostalgicwisdom’s comment about tutorials and independent study, my Pomona sophomore did an independent study for a half credit this semester as well, focusing on political speech and the writings of Hannah Arendt. I would put Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Pomona all on the same level.
@doschicos, interesting that this year Hamilton said they had more students submit ACT vs SAT - probably due to SAT testing change, but it still correlates using SAT data as they are all 750-770 for the top 25% across all subscores.
I would guess that is due to the SAT changes. I wouldn’t have wanted my kid to have to navigate that.
There is a danger and a falsehood in assigning rankings based on scores and admit rates. Of course in broad strokes there is a correlation. Ie; a school with a 1500 SAT likely deserves a better ranking than one with a 1350 (but perhaps not one with 1450). A school with a 10% admit rate, probably deserves a better ranking than one at 30% ( but perhaps not one with 14%). Some of these numbers have nothing to do with quality. Does Swat have higher SAT averages than Bowdoin because it has no football team? Does a school with a lower admit rate than another school, get more International applicants ( thus helping to lower the rate) because it is closer to a city/airport?
It seems not. There are “60 to 70 offered each year” which means 30-35 each semester. At 2 students each, that’s 60-70 students per semester. There are about 2200 students there so it’s barely possible for everyone to take one…there are only 520 spots open over the 4 years. And that allows for no repeats even if everyone gets to take one.
Someone who went to Williams would have to say if they get shut out of them or they’re open to upperclasspeople or you get preference if you haven’t taken one yet or what.
https://www.williams.edu/academics/tutorials/
It doesn’t seem like a compelling reason to choose the school given that Independent study is available, apparently, at other LACs, and not much time at Williams is spent in them.
Ohio University has an honors tutorial college in which all students take one tutorial per semester. THAT seems like the choice for a student interested in that sort of education, if not Oxbridge.
@OHMomof2 Actually, each tutorial class have 10 students divided into pair and into 5 different sections. So if there are 70 tutorials offered, then that would be 600+ students per year. Considered that most freshmen will not take tutorial because they are still adjusting to a new life /cannot take tutorial because they have not yet meet the prerequisite and a lot of juniors(50% of Williams student study abroad) take a semester/year to study abroad, that means there are about 600 tutorial students+/~1350 students. So no, tutorial isn’t just a gimmick or a marketing ploy.
Fwiw, Hamilton, Midd, etc. report superscored ACTs. Many colleges do not. E.g., Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, Vanderbilt, Smith, Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, Mount Holyoke, CMU, Carleton, Skidmore, Reed, etc.
@CrewDad, unless the school doesn’t accept superscoring in admissions, I think it would be impossible to achieve that result in the Common Data Set as there aren’t enough single-sitting 35 ACT’s to fill the rosters of the Ivies, Ivy equivalents, state flagships and top LAC’s.
@Chembiodad .What do you mean “accept superscoring in admissions?” A student can’t send a superscored ACT. The superscoring is done by the admission office. The colleges that I mentioned do not superscore the ACT from multiple sittings. They report the scores from one sitting; consequently, the reported scores are lower than they would be if they superscored.
Got it, but as by example Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore superscore as does Stanford and MIT so I am not certain how that’s aggregated amongst the rankings.
Welcome to the very imprecise ranking game.
The discrepancy in how ACTs are reported isn’t accounted for in the silly smartest colleges in America ranking either.
I’m hoping along with you that your daughter is accepted off the waitlist at Midd or Wes.