I don’t disagree. However, you don’t pay to apply for those jobs.
With college admissions, you do, unless you get a fee waiver.
Colleges accepting fees for applications have a higher duty than an Amazon, McKinsey, GS etc, IMHO and likely as a matter of law.
Because before you send in your application and pay the fee you should read what Yale states publicly….
https://admissions.yale.edu/what-yale-looks-for
Note they attach a link encouraging candidates to disregard rankings
In other words:
The vast majority of Yale’s applicants have the requisite academic credentials and stats.
Yale takes a holistic approach and it’s not just by the numbers.
Unfortunately the odds are exceptionally stacked against admission even with great stats and application.
They hardly hide these facts they highlight them and encourage their consideration.
You seem to suggest they are being deceptive by being forthright in an attempt to burnish their selectivity credibility. Seems they are vilified for over disclosure in the case of Yale or discretion from schools like Princeton.
Because the vast majority of Ivy applicants meet that GPA and test score bar. IOW, these schools reject a huge number of very well qualified applicants every single year.
I forget the exact number, but I believe it’s three. Most Ivies could accept three full classes from their applicants yearly. Clearly…they can’t do that.
I am not suggesting anything except that they publish those rates. There is no “deception” in their being “forthright”. But there are clear issues with playing games with the rankings currently and recently in the news. Those aren’t examples of being forthright, nothwithstanding a disclaimer to disregard rankings.
And the points I made in my earlier post today are systemic issues rendering even the posted rack-rate admission rate less than “forthright”, putting aside intentional deception. Do the schools discuss “being hooked”? Nope and that alone has myriad implications for that posted rate. That’s just one example.
But you are targeting Ivys. If people apply to Ivys and expect to get in just because they “have the grades” then maybe they aren’t as smart as they look on paper. I dont know how much more clear Ivys need to be on how selective and low their admissions rates are. Obviously the general public is not as college app savvy. Nobody is denying that. But you are talking about Ivys here.
Sorry but I personally think its way too many parents who think their little Joey is so amazing that of course they will get into wherever they want.
So you are saying that its the colleges fault that they can post admission stats right on their webpage or all over the internet and people still dont believe it? Admission Statistics | Princeton Admission
You can lead a horse to water but cant make it drink.
So now you are pivoting to individual schools (Columbia) within the Ivy League playing ranking games…
Previously this was exclusively about the injustice of the “collusion” among the entire Ivy League by announcing all at once on Ivy Day.
Makes me feel like there is an agenda searching for an argument.
Wow. It amazes me how folks absolve the schools. I guess they are indeed perfect.
Coordination among independent schools is most definitely an issue. I still do not understand why the Ivy League announces on the same day.
I am raising the further issue of assymetric information. Again, does anyone seriously contend that the system is perfect on behalf of the schools and that it’s all the parents’ and kids’ fault?
Ditto.
Please point me to where anyway has “absolved” any school of manipulating data to enhance their rankings. Actually a quick scan of the Columbia thread shows numerous posters including myself as highly critical of the schools actions.
But back to the point, how are kids harmed by the Ivies all announcing on the same day and what’s the alternative?
If you want to talk the insane rising costs of college, many would agree.
What most seem to disagree with is your argument that somehow the low admit rates of the Ivys are not clearly documented and that its in your opinion more emotionally damaging to release decisions on the same day.
I’m going to remind users that per Forum Rules, debate is not allowed. I am putting the thread on slow mode until the morning. Thanks for your understanding.
Are the kids’ and parents’ the reason for assymetric information? Nope. It is emblematic of all the problems in college admissions. In an industry with assymetric information, that’s the prelude to “market failure.”
So the “top schools” disclose differential stats for hooked vs unhooked? That’s great if true! And no, not once I have discussed the emotional impact of this, but it obviously ain’t great if you get multiple rejects from schools that are part of an athletic league on the same day.
My consistent points here are coordination of any type and asymmetry of information (meaning it is exceedingly difficult for consumers (i.e., the kids) to understand things over and beyond what the schools publish. And there is a HUGE amount of disparate information out there. That’s why I love CC, as it really helps put it all together. But even on a great website like this, you have to be a regular to understand the enormous complexities. I STILL don’t understand ED, EDII, REA, etc for starters, even though folks here have patiently explained it (to me and others).
Outright gaming of the system is one thing, but does anyone really believe that, outside of places like CC where folks are extremely well-informed, that most parents and kids understand the complexities? I didn’t until I started hanging out here. I would have NO idea about all the issues we are discussing. However, many of us, as busy as we are, have the time (or make the time) to do so. There are a vast number of parents and kids that don’t. I honestly would have never understood about the impact (not small) on hooked vs. unhooked stats “but for” the info I’ve gleaned here.
Again, I simply ask WHY do the Ivies coordinate on RD announcements? IMHO, the only plausible reason is to enhance the “Ivy League” brand.
Don’t get me wrong. The Ivies are amazing schools, but this is, to me, a clear (and apparently unique) case where this is a marketing ploy in an industry that I would clearly characterize as one with assymetric information. I just cannot understand why it is necessary.
What’s the solution? The easiest one is to announce decisions independently. These schools are great without mickey mouse stuff like this for rejected students. What possible purpose is served except to benefit several independent universities and the apparent aura of the “Ivy League”?
For admitted students, that apparent agreement to announce RD results on the same day and having the same deadline (I think) to respond for admitted students does indeed have a negative effect on students who are accepted by limiting the time to decide. Admissions decisions are independent to the schools, and the time to respond should be equally independent.
That’s the essence of competition, isn’t it? Consider this: If you went to several independent banks to get a home mortgage and they all said we will inform you of our decision to give you a mortgage on the exact date. And, if you get a mortgage from one or more of the banks, you have the same number of days to decide for all these independent banks.
Would you find that ok? I absolutely wouldn’t.
The bottom line is that most kids who apply to ivies will be rejected. If you apply to all eight, you will likely get rejected from all eight. So, is it better to get all the rejections at once, or have them spread out? That seems to be the only question here. The answer probably varies depending on the person. I see no inherent problem with Ivy day.
This is me not debating. Good night.
National College Decision Day/National Decision Day is May 1, and that’s for the vast majority of U.S. universities, not just the Ivy League.
Thank you for that. And it’s further testament to how little I know about the process, even with the vast education that CC has given me on the whole higher ed issue, and most particularly for this thread, the admissions issues. That to me is the essence of assymetric information. I only knew that because you were kind enough to tell me that.
This further heightens the impact of Ivy Day coordinated RD announcements on admitted students. They are basically given just one month to consider any acceptances from any of the eight schools by agreement of all of those same schools.
I take @lindagaf 's point about debating, and this is definitely my last post of the night, if not for the thread.
OP, I’m very sorry about the loss of your friend’s child.
If we are discussing what changes can be made to the admissions process, I’d like to suggest getting rid of the common app essay. We all feel badly when we get rejected by something, but I think it’s very different when you pour your heart and soul into that essay and try to convey the essence of yourself. I think this essay hugely personalizes the whole process, so when the rejection comes, it feels like YOU are being rejected, rather than your stats or other objective measures (such as needed a tuba player and you play oboe).
Youre allowed to have your opinion. Not many share those same thoughts and thats okay.
Reasons to release on the same day have been listed.
Theres many complexities of college admissions. Even how kids choose which schools to apply to cant always be rationally explained.
I work at a college. There is no Ivy goal or fascination in my kids school so I dont understand the anger about Ivy Day.
I agree with @mynameiswhatever in that many parents and their children have no idea how complex this process is. Further, they are led to believe by those around them that their kid is good enough to get into a top school. In many cases, they DO know the reality but it is virtually impossible to try when one knows that the outcome will be negative.
This thread is becoming way too serious. So, I am going to link Mindy Kaling’s commencement address at Dartmouth. The last five minutes are great. She talks about being delusional and believing that anything is possible and in her case, that turned out to be the case - somewhat.
My colleague’s son got denied from every ivy but he goes to a top DC area school now that no one would be ashamed of attending! I am sure a lot of these kids that are disappointed on ivy day will land on their feet and do just fine!
As this is an Ivy thread, here is a link from IvyWise that shows when colleges were releasing admissions decisions this year. The norm is generally for colleges to release their decisions by April 1 to give students a month to decide on a college. Most RD decisions were released between March 15 and April 1. Thus, the Ivy League’s release date was within the norm.
Inside Higher Ed just had an opinion piece about the easier SAT reading both reflecting and amplifying the decline in reading