The Golden Age of Medicine Coming to a Close?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>Hey guys,</p>

<p>I am just kind of wandering what the future of medicine looks like. As a high school senior right now (so I am obviously very ignorant when it comes to medicine), I am trying to decide where to go to college and get a general feel for my major and career goals. So, I guess I just have a very trivial question....is the pay and work week that comes with medicine going to decline and increase respectively in the near future? Look, I dont think I can say I have a strong "passion" for medicine yet...however I do know that I dont want to entertain the thought of going through 12-15 years of schooling if all that it comes with is an 80,000 dollars a year job that requires an 80 hour work week...and I think most future doctors would agree with me. </p>

<p>Thanks,
Robbie</p>

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<p>There’s a lot of easier ways to make money than by becoming a doctor.</p>

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<p>Depends on how you define the “Golden Age of Medicine.” If you mean the “Golden Age for Physicians,” when medical school did not cost that much and when doctors were looked up to and extremely well-compensated, then yes, that age is over.</p>

<p>However, if you mean the “Golden Age of Medicine,” when we started to better understand the underlying causes of disease and develop treatments based on scientific evidence, then I would say we’re only just entering that age now.</p>

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<p>For now, I wouldn’t worry about your future career. Focus on a good fit for your UG institution. Prestige doesn’t matter unless you end up at a CC (don’t do that). Regardless of what some may say here, your state school is probably a much better choice than HYPS if you hope to go into any area of healthcare (including MD/DO).</p>

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<p>Hmm…thats interesting apumic. Lol as I said, I am pritty ignorant about the medical process as a whole; however, from the little I do know, I thought it was kind of about where you would fit in best and excel. HYPS (ya…leaving out MIT because its extremely grade deflated) all offer great research opportunities and are-with the exception of Princeton-grade inflated. As a result, you can get a high GPA and do extremely well on most other things. With all that said, I will b applying to HYPS, Rice, and my state school…but I will prbly go to the best school I am accepted to (or Rice if I get a scholarship there).</p>

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<p>Quit worrying about med school admissions and focus more on your undergrad application process. You need to realistically ask yourself if you are rejected by HYPS and Rice will you be happy at your state school?</p>

<p>I only ask because your list is short and too heavily skewed to schools that are reaches for most everyone. I would suggest adding a few other schools that are more of a “match” that would be schools you would be happy attending if all else fails.</p>

<p>We have seen far too many people on CC though the years with lists like yours who are rejected everywhere and then hate their sole option/state school.</p>

<p>Take another look at that list, add a few more good matches and start worrying about med school admissions in a few more years.</p>

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<p>rtgrove, the reason I say a state school is probably your best bet is simply because of finances. The opportunities offered by “top UGs” aren’t that much greater than what you could get at your state school. Most of the variance in how much students get out of their studies is actually explained by who the students themselves are (personality, natural talents, proactiveness, etc.) and very little is really explained by the caliber of school. There are simply too many top PhD graduates of these top programs going to small LACs to teach for the opposite to be true and there are simply too many examples of amazing students not going to top schools. I did go to a well-regarded private myself and then took courses at a good state school as well and the dirty little secret is that the coursework is about the same level at both institutions. The caliber of student may vary somewhat (it does) but if you look around a bit you’ll find that there are high-achieving students no matter where you go.</p>

<p>On the other hand, finances vary quite a bit by school. My private UG cost me (before scholarships) about 10x what my state school would have cost me. If a student like myself went to an average medical school and ended up w/ the avg loan amount from med school of about $150k, the state UG student would only have a total of somewhere around $175k to pay off, while the private UG student would have loans more on the order of OVER 1 QUARTER of a MILLION DOLLARS!!! Double those amounts and you’ll have what you’ll end up paying with interest over 10-15 years… (slightly less, but plan on paying double). Considering UG institution and even medical school doesn’t really make any difference when it comes to your career, I simply don’t think it’s worthwhile to spend an additional $150-300k (plus interest) to go to the “top” schools (unless you’re going into academic medicine where it actually does matter).</p>

<p>EDIT: eadad also has a good point. One more reason not to focus on these dreamy schools so many here obsess about day and night.</p>

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<p>Eadad-</p>

<p>O ya I agree…I was just listing off a few of the schools I am applying to (Rice and HYPS are just my top picks)…my list includes safeties and reaches that span from Creighton to WashU.</p>

<p>Apumic-</p>

<p>Hmm ok…thats fair and good advice. My cousin, though, says that one should go to a prestigious UG if you ultimate goal is to enter one of the ROADs professions…not that I am considering that seriously at this time…but do you agree with that? </p>

<p>Thanks,
Robbie</p>

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<p>Not sure I get what you mean by the ROADs professions? Don’t know that I’ve ever heard someone use that term.</p>

<p>I’d probably suggest that a prestigious UG is helpful in such professions as business, law, politics, academics (university-level, not HS/MS/ES), entertainment, etc. Medicine and healthcare tend to be very different from those, however. This may be, in part, due to the high demand for these professionals. In law, politics, business, entertainment, and academics, your success is largely due to connections. There are simply too many “wannabe-VPs & -CEOs” for a company to seriously consider every possible candidate who might apply, so instead of having open hiring for these types of positions, oftentimes top execs are simply “recruited.” These recruitments occur due to one’s connections, so obviously being well-connected is vital in such fields as without those connections, you’d never even know such positions were going to be vacant soon.</p>

<p>This same type of scenario plays itself out all the time in other professions as well – esp. law & politics (think political and judicial appointments as well as nominating or supporting a candidate), academics (inviting a colleague to coauthor a project, faculty appointments, etc.), entertainment (you have to do or be something special to “get your foot in the door” to even get an audition in many cases), etc. Of course, connections could help in healthcare as well; however, the thing about healthcare is that at the UG level you have no way of knowing where those connections are (much less when you’re in HS). In a field like law, it is well-known that Harvard Law is well-regarded and has top experts in multiple fields of law; however, this is not necessarily the case with medicine. In fact, some of the biggest and most in-demand experts in medicine aren’t even faculty to a university med school (they may simply be associated with it). Instead, they may be doing mostly field research (with big grants and/or in association with other companies or institutions) within their practices and presenting at conferences and such. Those physicians may hold the keys to your residency and future (via their connections), but you’re probably not going to meet them by going to a top med school. Instead, you may meet them during your clinical rotations at whichever random med school they happen to have he associated with. The fact is, you have no way of knowing who these physicians are or where you should go to find them (they’re not simply living in DC like most of our top political and judicial officials, nor are they all down one of two streets in New York City as many entertainment and business employees and executives are). As a result, your best bet is probably to go to a mid to upper-tier program in-state where it will cost you less but you’ll get the same level of education and a similar set of opportunities (as compared to those you’d get for 2-4x the price at a name-brand institution).</p>

<p>Of course, you’ll notice I did not even mention your UG prestige in that whole 2nd half of my 2nd paragraph. The reason is that *the only way UG prestige could possibly influence your career would be in its indirect impact on your residency through the medical school you attend, which has its own effect on your residency mediated by the faculty with whom you form relationships<a href=“something%20no%20one%20can%20be%20particularly%20sure%20about%20when%20applying,%20esp.%20considering%20how%20often%20faculty%20move%20from%20one%20institution%20to%20another%20and%20how%20late%20you,%20as%20an%20applicant,%20would%20be%20finding%20out%20about%20such%20a%20move”>/I</a>. As a result, your UG’s prestige has such a small bearing upon your career trajectory in medicine that it is, in fact, negligible by comparison to the financial and opportunity costs you would be incurring.</p>

<p>**I believe the difference here comes down to an old joke I’ve heard cited a few times (esp. on SDN)…</p>

<p>What do you call a law student who finishes in the bottom half of his class? Unemployed…</p>

<p>What do you call a med student who finishes in the bottom half of his class? Doctor.
**</p>

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<p>I think that a solid, advantageous reason for students to go to a higher tier/more prestigious university (ie; HYPS) is that it is so hard to be sure coming straight out of high school to know for a fact that you want to be a doctor. With all the people that go into UG thinking they are pre-med and then drop it after some time, being at HYPS may allow them more versatility for an excellent education in another field of study, such as those you listed above, where prestige of your UG school really is helpful for a successful future career.</p>

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<p>^ That’s part of the reason I’m going to Cornell. Obviously it’s not quite HYP, but I chose it over a full ride to UNM, where I’d have made money (pocket the scholarship money from outside). However, I chose Cornell because it’s the environment I want, more intellectual mostly, and because if for whatever reason I decide on something else besides medicine, well, I’ll still have the Cornell name which would undoubtedly have it’s benefits in many other fields.</p>

<p>It also isn’t costing a terrible amount either. I wouldn’t have paid 50k a year to go that’s for sure.</p>

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<p>I definitely think there is some validity to that and in that sense, then, it comes down largely to a question of whether the possibility of the prestige of your school maybe helping you down the line in the event that you don’t end up going into healthcare at all is worth the definite and predictable increase in cost of attendance. IMO, for most people it’s probably not (most aren’t going to end up CEOs, VPs, top business lawyers that graduated top of their class from a top law school, etc. since there still aren’t enough of those lucrative positions for every or even every other HYPS graduate with a 3.5+ GPA); however, for a few, it will obviously pay off. To me, it seems a bit like when someone told me the “mean” William and Mary’s graduate makes ~$600,000k/yr. I haven’t done the research (and it was a number of years ago so the number could be a bit off), but something tells me there are a couple of billionaire alumni throwing those numbers way off!
In some ways, it’s kind of like going to Notre Dame to play football (assuming they recruited you) because their football team is one of the teams that get the most drafts by the NFL. Their connections certainly do help you, but not everyone who plays for them gets drafted. Only their best do. Of course, if you didn’t play football for a known school your chances of being drafted would go down quite significantly.</p>

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<p>ROAD stands for road to happiness. Meaning the four specialties that are considered to be the best mix of money and lifestyle:</p>

<p>Radiology
Ophthalmology
Anesthesia
Dermatology</p>

<p>That being said, your UNDERGRAD has nothing to do with getting into these specialties. Why the heck would they care about what you did in undergrad anymore than medical schools care about your high school life? I suppose if you did research in a ROAD specialty in undergrad, that might help, but that certainly isn’t only found in HYP.</p>

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<p>I thought it was Radio, Ortho, Anesth, and Derm?</p>

<p>No?</p>

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<p>I’ve heard it as Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesia, and Dermatology.</p>

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<p>I stand corrected.</p>

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<p>Ortho is a highly competitive one because of the pay, but it doesn’t have as nice of hours. As far as hard core surgery goes, it’d probably be on the top of the list (with maybe some competition from neurosurgery, but certainly not because of the humane hours of neuro).</p>

<p>That being said, people have been saying that the golden age of medicine was coming to a close ever since medicine began.</p>

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<p>I think you’re discounting the social factors of a top school too quickly. Let’s face it: college students, just like everybody else, are social creatures and therefore tend to draw cues from the social structure surrounding them. When you’re surrounded by highly motivated and accomplished students, you tend to become motivated yourself. But when you’re surrounded by lazy students who are more interested in partying and lounging around, then you tend to do the same. </p>

<p>Now I agree with you that every school has some core group of motivated students which you can embed yourself within if you go out of your way to do so. But the question is, will you? It’s more likely that you’ll just fall prey to pure proximity and embed yourself within the social groups that are nearby. If you want to stop smoking and lose weight, the first step you should take is to throw away all of your cigarettes and junk food out of your house, for the truth is, while you theoretically can choose to bypass them even when they’re readily at hand, the reality is that you probably won’t, hence the need to make sure such temptations are not readily at hand. </p>

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<p>Or, more importantly, what if you really are sure that you want to become a doctor…but then can’t get into med school? According to the AAMC, over half of all med-school applicants are rejected from every single med-school they apply to. And that’s just talking about those who applied - plenty of people who want to become doctors don’t even apply because they know they can’t get in. Let’s face it - if you have subpar grades and MCAT scores, you’re not going to get in anywhere. </p>

<p>So the question then is, if you can’t get into any med-school, what do you do now? You still have to do something with your life. You can parley an elite degree - even with subpar grades - into a successful career more easily than you can a regular degree with subpar grades. After all, look at George W. Bush: a mediocre student at Yale who nevertheless became a two-term President of the United States. In fairness, John Kerry too was a mediocre student at Yale - in fact surprisingly scoring even lower grades than Bush did - yet still became a 5-term (and counting) Senator and was nearly elected President. Both Bush and Kerry have freely admitted to being unmotivated students in college. </p>

<p>[Yale</a> grades portray Kerry as a lackluster student - The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student/]Yale”>http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student/)</p>