<p>Xiggi is correct. The June 05 test was not realeased, and thus is fair game for CB to use again. I also have to wonder, why anyone would have been able to take the test on Saturday in June, but had to take it on a Sunday in October. Are there any religions that only require Saturdays "off" for the month of October, but not June?</p>
<p>No, but if someone converted to judaism in between june and october, and took both SAT's, they are pretty ****'n lucky.....</p>
<p>damn.. i should've taken it on sunday...i took the june !!! ack.</p>
<p>If it is true that the Sun Oct 2005 test was wholly or partially the same as the Sat Jun 2005 test (and it sounds like it was), that is highly unusual. TCB does recycle questions from previously administered but unreleased tests, but for them to do so on tests from consecutive dates (June to Oct) is unheard of. Typically questions would not be reused for years, making it unlikely that anyone would see the same question twice in their high school years. </p>
<p>When I first heard that the Sun Oct 2005 test was not going to be released even though the Sat Oct 2005 is going to be released, I thought that was extremely unfair to my Jewish friends. I guess that now I wouldn't feel so bad for them, if they were so lucky as to have taken the Sat June test. </p>
<p>Also, some of you may remember that there was some controversy over the Sun March 2005 test too, because, for the first time ever, the Sun test was the exact same as the Saturday test the day before (except for the essay prompt). TCB got away with it, because no one was expecting it to be the same. Still, any Jewish kids who happened to talk to their Gentile friends about the test, had an advantage. And TCB got off cheap because they didn't have to release both tests (it costs them more than 1M$ to create a new test).</p>
<p>To me, this is all just more evidence that TCB is really struggling to keep up with the changes to their own tests and crank out enough well-scaled tests fast enough. This is why there is so much debate on these boards about how the released practice tests are or aren't realistic, how the scoring curves seem so different from test to test, and so on.</p>
<p>BTW, tokenadult, if you read this, doesn't it seem unfair for TCB to make threats like this when they don't play by their own rules? For example, they'll post the essay prompts on their website within a few days.</p>
<p>xiggi: mathicer was asking about answers, not the questions and answers. Anytime you can't order the Q&A, you can always then order just the A. And getting the answer service for both tests would confirm that they are the same tests.</p>
<p>On one of the CR questions, one of the SETI scientist said something about we shouldn't send messages into space because it's like a caveman saying "here, kitty" to a sabertooth tiger, what did you guys put? I can't remember the answer choices, but maybe 'sabertooth tiger' would juggle your memory.</p>
<p>The copyright holder has the right to decide how to distribute the publication.</p>
<p>"xiggi: mathicer was asking about answers, not the questions and answers. Anytime you can't order the Q&A, you can always then order just the A. And getting the answer service for both tests would confirm that they are the same tests."</p>
<p>2400SAT, I do not want to get in a lengthy discussion about what is available from TCB. The asnwers that are available for purchase is more or less a listing of your answers compared to the correct answers. It does not give any details about the contents of each problem, but simply lists A,B,D,D,E plus the grid-ins. In other words, it does not offer any explanations. This means, that short of memorizing every question, you will still be none the wiser. </p>
<p>As far as comparing the correct answers of both tests, it would suffice for TCB to mix and match the sections to render the exercise inconclusive.</p>
<p>c'mon xiggi, we expect more of you. I don't need for the discussion to be lengthy. what is available from TCB is exactly what I said, no more and no less. and, getting the answer service for both tests would certainly prove conclusively that they are the same tests. if, for example, I see the exact same sequence of answers for the grid-ins, I think I can safely assume those came from the same questions. you know better than anyone that they can't use the same questions and just re-order them.</p>
<p>"c'mon xiggi, we expect more of you."</p>
<p>I am not sure what that means. </p>
<p>As far as rearranging the subsequent tests, why would that be impossible? For instance, Section 4 becomes Section 5. They also could add one or two questions in the beginning of the math section, and this would change the answer report. </p>
<p>Do we KNOW if the October test was IDENTICAL to the prior test, or do we think it was substantially similar? </p>
<p>In the past years, there have been numerous examples of recycling of questions and make-up tests that were repeats. It is obvious that the trend will continue for a while.</p>
<p>It has always seemed to me that the same reading passage could have more than just a few critical reading questions based on it, including questions such that the distractor in one version is verbally identical with the correct answer in another version. But, whatever, it's the College Board's work product and they own the copyright.</p>
<p>The point is, who knows the answers to the Sunday october test?</p>
<p>ETS and College Board</p>
<p>even if answers are not released, jewish people could just go back and read threads on CC compiling answers for the previous months test or the original test if they are taking the make up. if they have done so, it woudl be quite easy to score perfectly since usually only the hard questions are compiled here. unfair.</p>
<p>dude, are you a College Board attorney? Help us out and point some of your legal acumen at the other side of the argument. Yeah, it's true that no one on CC should be sharing info in order to gain an unfair advantage. I think most of us on CC operate within the spirit if not the letter of the law. But surely TCB has some responsibility to secure their copyrighted material and provide some assurance of fairness, especially when that material has such high stakes attached to it and is wielded in a marketplace where they essentially hold a monopoly. </p>
<p>Let's review: they gave the same test on Mar 13 that they gave on Mar 12, and basically got away with it just because they had never done that before. They gave the same test on Oct 9 that they gave on June 4, again basically getting away with it because no one was expecting it. They're not releasing the Oct 9 test even though they are releasing the Oct 8 test. If I'm Jewish and taking the test on Sun, Nov 6, what am I supposed to do? Do I take the moral high ground while others cheat and gain an advantage, or do I troll CC and find out everything I can about the previous tests that may be used again on Nov 6?</p>
<p>One final way of looking at it: One reason there is so much discussion on CC about the tests' questions and answers is that everyone reasonably assumes it is harmless. No one expects the stuff I itemized above to happen. Either the test is supposed to be released and never used again, or the questions aren't supposed to be used again for years. These were the rules of CB's own game. Now they've changed the rules, because they haven't developed enough versions of their new test.</p>
<p>I would like to see further confirmation of just how many recent IDENTICAL versions, if any, there have been of College Board tests. (I am still not sure whether successive releases of the test are exactly verbally identical, or just partially repeats of earlier nonexperimental sections.) I would agree that College Board's budget is large enought that it ought to be able to generate substantially new, well validated item content for each and every administration of each and every College Board test. I know that ETS has been a pioneer in the testing industry in item-by-item scaling of standard scores on the test (what most people on CC call "setting the curve") but I don't know FOR SURE that the test sections are thoroughly sliced and diced and rescrambled each and every time the tests are administered--which would be the desired procedure, I think. </p>
<p>It happens that in an earlier occupation I actually visited the ETS offices in New Jersey for professional meetings and even had lunch in the staff lunchroom. But, no, I don't represent College Board as an attorney so if it goofs up it will ultimately have to defend itself. </p>
<p>AFTER EDIT: I remember the earlier thread(s) alleging that College Board gave a verbally identical test on two successive days in March 2005, but that was specifically denied by the College Board Web page that listed the section orders for each test given in March. I remain to be convinced that such a thing ever actually happened--what test-taker could have taken the test on the two consecutive days to be sure he saw the same test on both occasions?</p>
<p>It wasn't the same EXACT test, but it had many of the same reading passages, and similiar math answers. They could have sliced and diced, but in the end, a majority of the questions were the same.</p>
<p>the june test had far too many combinations of sections..</p>
<p>i had a hard time finding people who had taken the EXACT combination as mine in June. i think the number was 5 or less! since CB seems to have worked extra hard for the June tests, maybe they thought they could slack now, simply recycle and use the questions in a different combination!</p>