The Latecomer - June CC Book Club Selection

Parents Forum Parent Cafe
41

Great link Himom

“ What do you hope your readers will take away from the book?

That people aren’t always who they appear to be. That houses can be like people in more ways than one. That Henry Darger isn’t the only Outsider Artist. That religion and politics sometimes serve the purpose of more intimate human needs. That sometimes we only learn to know a person after they’ve left us. That great art can heal our souls. That even families twisted by resentments and grievances can be brought back together by forgiveness and love.”

4 Likes
42

I wish we had had an opportunity to see more of the “woke” side of Salo (post his crying epiphany). I understood why he wanted Stella, but not really the reverse. She seemed too together a person to want to get involved with a man that had so many issues (and so many children).

I wondered a bit about Stella’s negotiations with Johanna and Harrison after Salo’s death. Since Salo and Stella had a child–and Salo was essentially a billionaire–it seems that even the most basic negotiations would have had Stella and their son set for life. But it seems she only got the house.

5 Likes
43

It doesn’t sound like she ever wanted more than the house and paintings that linked her to Salo. Sometimes people just want what the want and don’t want a drawn out battle and settle for what they want most—in this case the house.

1 Like
44

From the Deep Springs College (aka Roarke) description:

Between twelve and fifteen students are admitted each year. Each receives a full scholarship; the college covers the costs of tuition, room, and board for every student offered admission. In exchange, Deep Springs students are expected to dedicate themselves to lives of service to humanity.

I’m not sure Harrison kept up his part of the bargain. :slight_smile:

I got a kick out of the Colleges that Change Lives references. That book was pushed on us (high school parents) 20 + years ago, and my son went to Grinnell (a favorite of the Walden counselor).

8 Likes
45

Lol I thought the same about the book - and how appropriate for CC book club!

3 Likes
46

Lots and lots of therapy (“Years with one of Ithaca’s finest!”)

That moment mirrored Salo’s “Stendahl Syndrome” experience when he sees the painting in the art gallery. Sally is her father’s daughter, whether she likes it or not.

(Stendahl syndrome was new to me: What Is an "Art Attack" (Stendhal Syndrome)?)

I think so, but sort of like flip sides of the same coin. Salo’s collection is well-organized and meticulously cared for in a clean space; whereas, Rochelle’s mom’s hoarding is a chaotic and filthy mish-mash of god-knows-what. But in both instances, collecting and hoarding are a means of separating the collector/hoarder from being actively engaged in the world.

8 Likes
47

Good insight!

48

Coming in late as I am at my 45th college reunion. How can it possibly have been that long?!

Put me down as someone who loved the book. I was totally drawn in by Phoebe’s voice even when I didn’t know she was the narrator. She had a way with words that made me laugh and not care that I was spending time with so many awful people behaving badly. I usually avoid books and TV shows with unlikable characters, so I was fine with the latter half of the novel as the kids grow up and behave like normal people, though I’m pretty sure I’d still find Harrision too smug to be around. I was secretly cheering when he got his comeuppance.

I was completely surprised by the September 11 thing. I wonder if Salo could possibly have been able to have the kind of future he envisioned for all of them.

My only real quibble was with Sally’s reaction to being outed. I had a friends who were slow to figure out their sexuality, but by the 1980s in NY (and especially at a progressive school like Walden), I just don’t know how Sally could have been in such denial.

I found the references to Colleges that Change Lives hilarious. My SIL was a huge, huge fan and got two of the four kids to go to St. Johns. I don’t think it changed their lives at all. They are great kids, but what they do now is completely unrelated to their classical education.

8 Likes
49

@mathmom, have fun at Reunion!

From the opening pages, Phoebe’s narration is the clue – more than a clue, the evidence – that everything is going to turn out okay. That’s one of the things that kept me going through the drama of people behaving badly. Her use of the royal “We” and her intimate knowledge of her siblings’ lives (from before she was born) indicate right off the bat that they are now united–at least in some form–and have shared all the secrets that once caused so much trauma.

And then they were eighteen, and not just leaving home but desperate to begin three permanently separate adult lives, which is exactly what would have happened if the Oppenheimer family hadn’t taken a turn for the strange and quite possibly unprecedented. But it did–we did–and that has made all the difference (p. 2).

I didn’t actually find the triplets unlikeable (okay, except Harrison). Sally and Lewyn made some serious mistakes (with Rochelle as the unintentional victim), but I thought enough of their inner lives was revealed to show them as complex people struggling with new situations and regretting their own poor choices.

3 Likes
50

Since this discussion began, my laptop has been trying to get me to watch trailers of the new movie, “Oppenheimer.” And all I can think is of course it has because “Oppenheimer is kind of a common name.” :joy:

1 Like
51

What were people’s thoughts on Johanna? Was she truly attracted to Salo? Did you feel she was a loving or perfunctory mother? Her personality seemed so flat from the moment they met.

1 Like
52

And Lewyn had this same kind of reaction to the Mormon pageant. The whole family was prone to impulsive passions: Harrison in his response to the visiting school speaker, and Johanna in her response to re-meeting Salo at the wedding. (Not sure about Phoebe and Ephraim, but give them time!)

5 Likes
53

I felt the same way about Johanna, as I did the triplets,
I REALLY didn’t understand them, I didn’t understand their motivations and deeper feelings, for their vile behavior toward each other.

Johanna was the most sympathetic character, perhaps because Phoebe seemed closest with her mother, and was our storyteller,

Johanna seemed devoted, and sincere in wanting a happy family, but she was saddled with Sullen Salo, and the hateful triplets.

I would have abandoned this book, too, unlikeable characters, constant bitterness , but as many have said, it became a page turner, and I had to know how it would end.
I did give this 5 stars on Goodreads.

Sept 11 slipped up on me, too. Kudos to the author for disguising the date enough it surprised many of us.

Mary13, I applaud you for your sympathetic perspective, for these characters, ,especially Salo.

Am I a bad person for thinking, Jean Hanff Korelitz creatively dealt with Salo, by hitting the 9/11 nerve in all of us, hit like a lightening bolt of shock.

Is it because Phoebe was our storyteller, who just gave us a blow by blow of events ? that I never felt I understood the justification for the triplets hostility.

Is this normal sibling rivalry?

Is it particularly intense with multiples. My daughter is close friends with twin girls, who are not very close at all,

2 Likes
54

They definitely were largely void of relationship with each other. It was painful to see how they all could not wait to get away from home. But the other thing was it seemed that all three of them didn’t seem to know what love and caring meant - or felt like. Those feelings, when they came with others they encountered after the left home, were brand new and a bit of an adjustment.

2 Likes
55

@basket how do you view Johanna, as mother ? Wife ?

56

I listened to a podcast interview with Jean Hanff Korelitz, who wrote the book in five months, who said she covered her passionate interests, Mormonism, outsider art, and hoarding all rolled up into The Latecomer.

Lwelyn, the sweet son on journey for acceptance and love, allowed JHK to pursue Mormon fixation, by the way she said her mother begged her to remove the Mormon segments.

Sally, hoarding, and finding control in fixing other peoples’ messed up untidy lives and homes. jHK, watches reality tv, hoarding shows,

Harrison- this gave JHF, a chance to bash the right wing, Fox News mentality, although she did treat the lefty Walden educational system with some valid criticisms.

2 Likes
57

Honestly, sort of in the middle on both! I mean, she was the organizer as both. I just think she was lousy at developing an emotional relationship. I don’t feel she really had that with her husband or her children. Sure she had aspirations for them, but so much of her mothering felt rote. Maybe a little more relaxed with Phoebe, but of course then she was also dealing with losing her husband.

2 Likes
58

I agree, and while that made sense for navigating romantic relationships (because they had such a poor model with their parents’ marriage), it didn’t make sense for “general” love and caring. Johanna may have had a lot of issues and yes, she wore blinders as regards the dysfunctional nature of her family, but there is no doubt she loved her children deeply and showed it in many ways. Why those three teens started out as such unpleasant people is beyond me. Many people come from far worse homes and far worse parents and still have close relationships with others and know how to be kind.

Nope. At least not in my experience. I have six brothers and sisters and all seven of us are about a year apart. (My poor parents had a year of six teenagers in the house at the same time.) Sure, there were fights–plenty of them–but they were more along the lines of “I never said you could wear my new sweater!!” or “Who broke my 45 of ‘Return to Sender’?!” :joy: At the core, we were close and still are. The triplets in The Latecomer were not just distant from one another, they were deliberately cruel, and that was the part of The Latecomer I found hardest to swallow.

5 Likes
59

Six brothers and sisters and each of you only a year apart? Oh my. Seven teenagers would be tough, but what about seven kids all under the age of eight??

60

It was the Catholic way. :blush: There was no such thing as helicopter parenting, that’s for sure. We pretty much ran wild. My mom would ring a cowbell in the evening to call us in for dinner. It was an era where none of us ever dreamed that the world was a dangerous place, and we were fortunate to have had happy childhoods in that bubble.

3 Likes