The athletic slots at Ivies is pretty well documented. In fact there is an agreement among the Ivy colleges which lays out the number of allowed recruits and the academic standards recruits must meet (an absolute minimum in AI (an index based on gpa and test scores) and an average AI across all recruits that cannot be 1 standard deviation below the campus-wide AI). The original “break” on the Varsity Blues scandal related to the Yale women’s soccer coach who sold spots. The Harvard fencing coach was fired and is currently facing charges in court that he traded spots for economic benefit from a rich Chinese national in the NYT article linked above. You can google all of this for various sources.
As @Mwfan1921 stated above, perhaps fencing in the Ivies you talked with are not allocated spots. The timing of your kid’s preread also suggests he was working with a coach outside of the Ivy agreement. Official pre-reads involving the AO cannot happen until July 1 preceding senior year. Coaches will do informal pre-reads not involving the AO prior to screen for kids that are able to meet the academic qualifications that will likely pass the AO.
I have a question. My kid applied to his dream school, a DIV I NCAA school. The coach was very encouraging, he had an interview and an invite for campus visit. During the visit my kid was asked about his GPA and ACT. One of the coaches went to the admission office and came back with tumbs up. The main coach then told my kid he is being recruited and to apply early. Needless to o say my kid was elated and so was I.
This happened in April. Tonight, the coach called to say the admission office doesn’t want to give early admission to o my kid unless he has more As than Bs. He has way more As than Bs and no Cs or lower. I have a hard time understanding what is happening. My kid’s grades more than satisfy the admission office requirements.
Would a coach just make up such a reason to take his word back?
Hi @Isichitiu
I’m afraid I don’t have any insights, I just want to offer sympathy for the situation, it must be devastating and also unfair since your child didn’t have the opportunity to pursue other options. I cannot imagine what happened unless his academics changed significantly between April and now which it doesn’t sound like is the case. Perhaps you could contact the admissions office directly? Or others might have more ideas. Good luck…
Not a fencing parent - but have a recruited athlete. I would encourage your child to contact the coach with an attached transcript - just to confirm the right paperwork matched up. I am sure it is unlikely a mistake - but odd wording from a coach if the transcript is mostly A’s. Are the B’s in core classes - so is the transcript still more As when you take out the non cores?
Lastly, it is so hard and sorry your family is going through this uncertainty.
In a somewhat related note on the topic of uncertain recruitment offers, are NLIs always provided and if so, when? Is it after the student applies ED and is accepted? Should an athlete be concerned if a recruitment confirmation email was sent, the coach has requested a lot of info for next year, spoken to parents at NAC about incoming athlete, etc but no mention of NLI?
H! Sorry for the very late reply . . .
Our experience was that DD emailed and zoomed during Spring of Junior year with a handful of D3 coaches that she felt would be a good academic and fencing fit for her. She sent them her resume, which included test scores, grades, honors, ECs, etc. She then met with those coaches in person at Summer Nationals before Senior year. Three coaches offered to run pre-reads for her over the summer. A fourth said he would run a pre-read if she confirmed that school was in her top five choices. She decided she was not really interested in that fourth school and so did not request a pre-read. By Fall of senior year she had responses from the 3 pre-reads and set out on visits. Meanwhile a fifth school, where she had been unable to connect with the coach, surfaced as a possible good fit. She had a pre-read in process at school five when we visited, and she decided it was not a good fit after all (for a very niche reason related to one of her majors). None of the schools that ran pre-reads asked her how many schools she was looking at or questioned how seriously she was looking at their school. That said, she was actually very interested in each of those schools, and it probably showed. For example, she had done a great deal of school-specific research to know why she would thrive in her major(s) at those schools. And she asked early on to be able to meet (over zoom) with fencers on the team and specifically fencers in her major to get a feel for the team and the way the team balanced academics.
With respect to timing of the pre-reads, my memory is there is a certain date on which they can start (like maybe 7/1 or 7/15 before Senior year). And then it is school-specific as to when exactly they can be submitted. Some schools do it on a rolling basis, others 1x or 2x a month. Some coaches can only submit so many. We had a little chart so we could keep track of who she had talked to (coach, captain, person in major), what had been submitted (transcript, resume, etc.), when we went into the pre-read process with each school and when to expect results, etc.
That was our pre-read experience. And it was limited to what I would call highly selective D3s.
Wanted to respond to this specifically – for DD, the coaches would not give a commitment without the admissions office approval through a pre-read. The commitment post pre-read was along the lines of, “The AO reviewed your transcript, test scores, class registration for senior year and resume (which basically includes all the honors and activities that go into the Common App), and on the condition of [don’t drop an AP class, maintain grades, do an interview, whatever other condition, etc.] and if you apply ED, then the AO said you are in.”
The only difference between what was submitted for a pre-read in July and the actual application in October were the essays and LORs. The AOs should have a full and complete picture academically, and then they get whatever personal info the coach shares.
And on the other hand, there was no way my daughter was going to commit to one school only without any sort of assurance from the AO. In fact, despite the assurances from her first choice ED1 school, she had a back up plan for ED2 at another school if something had gone sideways. This, again, is school specific–some schools want you ED1 and others are willing to take recruits ED2.
I think that the concept of “pre-reads” is often misunderstood and not always due to any fault on the part of parents and fencers. While there is a textbook definition of sorts…
First, there are rush pre-reads for the most elite recruits. My fencer’s pre-read (as well as those of several other high-level recruits we know) was done in March of his junior year of high school. There are many reasons for this, including being able to make hard early offers, financial aid considerations, as well as the fencer’s competitive trajectory which may enhance his or her value and increase competition among potential recruiters.
Second, pre-reads are not necessarily a full stamp of approval by the admissions committee. Sometimes, particularly when done early or, apparently in the case of the OP, seemingly spontaneously, they are almost cursory, eyeball checks to look for red flags that would derail the recruit’s application.
Finally, in the normal course (which is what most of us think of with respect to this concept), during the regular process of recruiting, a pre-read may be done for an athlete who a school is seriously considering recruiting. I have heard some parents talk about pre-reads as if this is something you request if your fencer is interested in the school. No. It is an accommodation by the school especially reserved for student-athlete the school intends to recruit or is at least on a short list of prospects.
Despite all assurances of a pre-read, it is not a commitment to recruit. While I am of the strong opinion that coaches rarely if ever renege on formal recruiting commitments, these remain verbal promises. Likely letters (mostly from Ivies), Letters of Intent, and a formal request for the student to apply early are all the most tangible forms of formal recruitment. This is not to say that coaches do not honor their early, verbal commitments. In my experience, this is almost always true. But it is not the hard commitment that guarantees recruitment.
Are NLIs always provided and if so, when? Is it after the student applies ED and is accepted? Should an athlete be concerned if a recruitment confirmation email was sent, the coach has requested a lot of info for next year, spoken to parents at the NAC about specific details concerning the incoming athlete, etc but no mention of NLI? Thanks!
Yes I’m aware- should have clarified my question!. My fencer has been recruited to a D1 non-ivy. Never received an NLI and wondering what’s the timeline for it. Thanks.
Your student should ask their coach if and when they will be signing an NLI. Assuming your student has made a verbal commitment to apply to said school, or has already applied and been accepted.
HI everyone.
I just found this forum and it provides so many useful information!. Now my daughter is currently having some difficulties and I would like to ask for some help. She is currently a sophomore in high school (2006) and is ranked in the top 16 in the country (East Asian countries) for Junior, but she has never competed in the US and has no international competition experience. She wants to go to college in the US to continue her fencing, which is her favorite thing to do. However, her academic performance is not very good, and she does not have TOEFL or SAT scores. It is not expected that there will be a big improvement in a short time. I knew it was not feasible to start contacting coaches onow, one reason being that it was too late and one reason being that she was not well prepared academically. So what I would like to inquire about is if she applies to college in the US a year later (last year of high school) and continues to maintain her current fencing level. If possible, she can participate in the NAC in April and the July Challenge in July to get a better fencing result. Also she will try to get a reasonable score on the TOEFL and SAT this year. She didn’t aim at elite school. Will she have a chance to get recruited by a US university and what kind of university would be her target?
Thanks for your kindly help!
Here is the list of colleges with fencing programs in the U.S. Look for the ones with women’s team, mid to high acceptance rate and where your daughter’s academic data (GPA, test scores) are within their admitted students’ profile range. Good luck with your daughter.