In regards to Brown’s program, 2 saber fencers have committed, one male one female so far.
@cashcarti are these saberists class of 2023 or 2024?
Brown Fencing MS is currently made up of 1 experienced fencer and two others who are more or less beginners with ~1 year of experience. For 2023, there is 1 very strong recruit who is high on JNRP and 1 B-rated walk-on. To break through on this squad, a fencer probably has to be a C or better. Sorry. No current info on WS, but there are those on this site who can provide better insights.
@fencingmom class of 23.
@BrooklynRye There’s 1 WS who’s high up on the junior list.
Yup, for 2023 WS there’s an incoming top 30 junior and one other decent walk on.
The important thing to learn from the pretty invaluable information, in this case about Brown fencing, that can be obtained on this thread, is to plot your course strategically. A straightforward chart of a potential recruit’s target schools, noting the gender/weapons for which the school may require fresh recruits really, really expedites the process. It also makes you, parent and fencer, much more intelligent consumers when realistically targeting schools and when speaking with coaches.
Another quick point that has come up in several PM communications – Address your concerns and desires regarding a potential team slot at any given school. A couple of the items that come up repeatedly are financial support for national and international competitions, and flexibility with regard to outside training. If these are or may be critical to your decision making process, address these up front!
@BrooklynRye very good advice
This information is incredibly helpful!
Hi @BrooklynRye - apologies but very new to the this forum (1st post)…I have some specific questions (re recruiting an international fencer - or if you could point me in the right thread)…is it possible to initiate a PM?
If anyone was interested in that report discussed upstream somewhere…the one that looks at all the current NCAA rosters, Div 2 and Div 3 programs have recently been added to the report.
About the only things missing from these charts are GPAs and test scores! But since that data isn’t publicly available, I suppose we’ll have to settle for a fencer’s status as a USA Fencing Academic All-American and National Merit Semifinalist (and, where applicable, National Merit Scholar).
I write this because I want to remind readers about USA Fencing’s Academic All-American program. This is a nice recognition for fencers at SNs. It’s also, IMO, a GREAT line on a fencer’s resume for many years to come. This is particularly true for young men and women who don’t fence in college. A reference to “USA Fencing Academic All-American (2015-2018)” under “High School” is likely to elicit questions from interviewers. And what could be easier - and more fun - to talk about during an interview than fencing? It’s also a great topic for telling an interviewer about “life lessons learned” - e.g., the need to practice; being a teammate; rebounding from defeats; etc.
Remember, the Academic All-American program covers all four years of high school, so this is one of the very few items that parents actually need to think about vis-a-vis their 9th graders. (Ninth grade is far too early to worry about everything else. Let your children enjoy high school while they can!)
One other suggestion, this time for 10th grade parents - have your children take the PSAT in October. (Sorry, this suggestion is too late for the high school Class of 2020.) The results don’t show up on your child’s record, and the test may be a good early indicator of how your child will fare - a/k/a where your child needs help - on the “real” PSAT in 11th grade, as well as the ACT and SAT.
Now that DS has been successfully recruited to fence at and accepted by his college of choice, I’d like to thank those that have contributed to this valuable forum by sharing my own observations of the process. DS may have different perspectives, which he can post if he wants.
First, the information contained in this forum was valuable and for the most part right on target. It served as a great guide to DS’s journey. Even areas of debate highlighted issues that are simply not clear cut and therefore informed our thinking.
One of the most helpful pieces of advice we received from a fellow fencer and Dad, which I haven’t seen on this forum, is that for fencers considering an academically selective college, the fencer should sit for the SAT (or ACT) prior to the start of junior year. The advantages included: a) coaches seemed to respond with relatively more interest knowing that DS had already done sufficiently well on the SAT to be accepted and b) the summer is a great time to prepare (which DS did by simply taking one of the officially released prior SATs every week leading up to the August test date).
As suggested elsewhere in the forum, JNRPs rank is key for recruitment to a top Div I college. Cadet ranking or designated international cadet performance turned out to be of uncertain importance. The top 8 fencers in DS’s grade and weapon were all recruited and accepted into a top Div I school (e.g., Ivy, ND).
DS emailed coaches at the Ivy’s and Stanford around Jan 1, junior year with an institution-specific letter of interest and a single page bulleted fencing and academic resume. He heard back within days from most of the coaches. The 2 that did not respond simply turned out to be poor at responding to the initial and follow up email, as opposed to being purposefully disinterested in DS, so don’t take absence of response as absence of potential interest. Hence, be persistent if you’re interested in a college but don’t hear back from the coach.
Of the coaches that responded, one indicated that they’d already committed their slot(s), the rest indicated potential interest. The responses varied from a formal multi-paragraph explanation of the process to what appeared to be brief ad hoc smart phone responses.
DS provided an update after each NAC and after his 1st semester grades were received. After JOs his update email asked for an informal visit during his Spring break. Colleges where there was still mutual interest were visited during break or shortly after with a mtg with a coach and a regular applicant tour.
The visits were critical to DS deciding on his top choice. Two weeks after April National Championships and an update email, DS’s coach received a reference call from the Coach at DS’s top choice school. DS then received an email indicating that a commitment from DS would be reciprocated. After a couple back and fourths DS and college coach mutually committed (informal of course) in May. There were no verbal communications after the unofficial visit.
DS’s resume received a preread without issues in July, a LL in October, and an acceptance Mid-December as outlined by the coach in May.
As a beneficiary of earlier posters, I hope that this post benefits other fencers in the future. I am happy to answer questions or even contribute in the future now that DS is squared away.
Much like @“helmut?”, my fencer has been accepted to college and will be fencing at a Division I school next year! I wanted to share my Lessons Learned about the recruiting process. I’m sure every point has been discussed somewhere on this board, but I wanted to consolidate our keys to success.
- READ "THE ONLY COLLEGE RECRUITING THREAD" IN ITS ENTIRETY. Print it out and read every page of this message board. Highlight the sections you find important. This board is full of great information from a lot of parents that have a lot of experience in the recruiting process. No two experiences will be the same, and the experiences of a world team member will be different from a top 20 fencer which will be different from a fencer with lower national rankings. Your fencer may move between these groups as you approach the recruiting timeframe, so understand how things may vary depending on which group your fencer is in at any given time.
- UNDERSTAND YOUR PROSPECTIVE SCHOOLS FROM AN ACADEMIC PERSPECTIVE. The first step of the recruiting process for me was to understand the academic goals of my fencer and analyze the prospective schools against those goals. What does my fencer want to study? Which schools are strongest in those academic areas? Would my fencer prefer a larger school or smaller school? Is an urban school or more suburban school preferred? What are the average SAT scores? Will my fencer meet the academic criteria? There are lots of questions to consider, but the majority of fencers don’t have Olympic dreams – they need to come out with a degree that will set them up for a solid future. The good news is that almost any fencing school should set your fencer up for long-term success.
- UNDERSTAND YOUR PROSPECTIVE SCHOOLS FROM A FENCING PERSPECTIVE. The next step was to understand the makeup of the prospective school’s fencing teams. How large are the teams? How many fencers do they keep in each weapon? Do they typically only have World Team members or a mix of fencers with varying skills? How many team members are graduating in your fencer’s senior year? Understanding these questions will give you an idea of how many spots are available at each prospective school and whether your fencer has the results required to be recruited. It’s important to be realistic about your child’s chances or you will be setting yourselves up for heartache.
- UNDERSTAND THE RANKINGS OF CURRENT COLLEGE TEAM MEMBERS AT THE END OF SUMMER NATIONALS OF THEIR JUNIOR YEAR IN HIGH SCHOOL. This will take some work, but I found it worthwhile. If you go the USA Fencing website, you can look at archives of point standings from prior years. Look at the Junior and Senior rankings of current team members at the end of Summer Nationals. This will give you an indication of their rankings when they were in the recruiting phase. You’ll probably find a wider range of rankings than you would expect. If your fencer falls within the range of current team members, you can feel comfortable about the opportunity to be recruited.
- KNOW YOUR FENCER'S COMPETITORS. You are not competing against all fencers for recruiting slots, only those that are graduating in the same year as your fencer. How can you tell which fencers are graduating the same year as your child? Asking them is the easiest way, but you can also look at birth years in the national rankings. This may give you an idea of which fencers are potential competitors, although you’ll typically find that seniors are split between two different birth years.
- START COMMUNICATIONS EARLY. My fencer started to make introductions to fencing coaches via email during the spring of Sophomore year. You may or may not get responses (my fencer’s ultimate destination did not respond for the first 6 months), so don’t get discouraged. As you get new results, update them (my fencer provided updates every couple of months or so, especially after NAC with good results). If you have the opportunity to visit some campuses during vacations or spring breaks, take the tours so your fencer can get a feel for the school and reach out to the coaches to see if they are available to meet. Again, don’t worry about it if they don’t respond - you can and should stop by the fencing room for the school to see the facilities. You’ll often run into the coach and you can at least introduce yourself which may very well turn into a lengthier conversation.
- BUILD A FENCING PROFILE. My fencer created a resume with photo, weapon, graduating year, top results, academic results, rankings, and 5-touch bout win percentages for local/ROC/NACs. College fencing focuses on 5-touch bouts, so win percentages of this type of bout is more important than 15-touch bouts. This profile can be updated after NACs and sent to prospective colleges.
- MAKE IT EASY TO BE RECRUITED FROM AN ACADEMIC STANDPOINT. Coaches may want your fencer to be on their team, but only Admissions can accept the student. Make no mistake about it – if Admissions says your fencer’s academics are not good enough, he/she not going to that school. If your child wants to fence in college, focus on good grades from the first day of freshman year. If freshman grades are poor, it is hard to catch up. From a standardized testing standpoint, know what is required. Get a first SAT or ACT score completed before the beginning of Junior year – this will give prospective schools a good feel about your fencer’s ability to get you through the pre-read process.
- ACT PROFESSIONALLY. Coaches will do their research. They will watch your fencer at NACs (on and off the strip). They will talk to people they know at your fencer’s club. They will ask people from your Division about behavior at local tournaments. They’ll look at your fencer’s social media accounts. Coaches will be with your fencer for four years. Regardless of your fencer’s skills, they don’t want to deal with problem fencers that are going to be a headache for four years. They also will not want fencers that will damage the team’s culture or the school’s reputation. This Lesson Learned should also apply to parents as well. They are not going to want to deal with pushy parents for four years!
- WHEN THERE IS MUTUAL INTEREST BETWEEN YOUR FENCER AND HIS/HER DREAM SCHOOL, LET THEM KNOW THEIR SCHOOL IS YOUR FENCER'S TOP CHOICE. Some fencer’s might want to play “hard to get” – being non-committal and playing schools off each other. If you do this, your fencer might find themselves without a chair when the music stops. Once my fencer found a college that was interested and was our top choice, we let the school know they were my fencer’s #1 target – very clearly. The goal (which was successful) was to let the school know that we weren’t playing games and would commit immediately with an early offer. This worked out well for my fencer. Others may approach this point differently, but I wanted to provide some insight to our experience.
Finally, HELP OTHERS THROUGH THE PROCESS. Once you get through the recruiting process, give back to this board and the next group of parents that are going the same ups and downs you went through. As schools change coaches and focus, the experiences will change and your more recent experiences can help others navigate this stressful time.
Thanks @helmut? and @Rollhigher for these great summaries of your kids’ recruiting journeys. Congrats to them both — and to their parents! I’m glad that the thread has been helpful to your families.
Wishing you a Happy New Year and an uneventful final semester of high school!
So the official admission to a Div. I Ivy League has arrived! As promised, we too are “paying it forward” by reporting our experiences and advice. In my case, procrastination has paid off since others have already written helpful reports.
For those who are just starting their journey, in case you are feeling overwhelmed by the extensive postings/info on this forum, here are a few of the posts I found particularly useful, as a start.
a. The initial series that provide the overview, (the super helpful #’s 1-15 from @SevenDad).
b. Post #438 which gives a good example time line of the process
c. Posts #744 and 745 for some practical references
d. Post #802 about the college experience
e. Post #872 – indeed, @Rollhigher has already stated many of the things I was intending to write (thanks!).
So here’s one framework that might be helpful as you think about the various factors affecting you/your child’s journey to fencing in college:
Things you have more control over:
• Academics. You can never go wrong working to ensure that you/your child is getting the strongest education s/he can. This does not mean being ultra competitive and obsessing over every grade or test. What it does mean is taking rigorous classes and prioritizing school.
• Being well-rounded. Engage in other activities and interests. I know it may sound counter-intuitive to say in this forum, but fencing isn’t everything. Music, debate, robotics, chess, theater, journalism, social activism …. Most Ivies and high level schools want to see some breadth of engagement, but it shouldn’t be just to impress the school, it should be what one is truly inspired to do.
• Being flexible about which schools you are looking at, i.e., don’t get obsessed about only one school.
• Focusing on the academic and other factors “match” of a school. Does the school have the kinds of programs/classes that would otherwise be of interest? Is the school the right size, or in the kind of location you would want? If you have the time and wherewithal, visit schools early in the process so you have time to think about where you are most interested.
Things you have less control over:
• How high of a ranking your fencer achieves. Of course one can practice diligently, take lessons, and be motivated, but not every person is going to be #1 (or 2 or 3……). If you read through the posts in this forum, or look at the rosters, you will see that people achieve spots at Div I programs despite not being high-ranking A-rated fencers, and others are happily ensconced at their chosen schools fencing Div III or club. There are many paths to bright futures.
• (there was another point I was going to make here but I’ve already forgotten what it was ;-D)
Things you have no control over (so note them but don’t fret about them):
• How many other fencers are in your/your fencer’s birth year/gender/weapon
• Make-up of any given team/squad (what the needs are for a particular school in a particular year)
• Who the coach is. (You can decide whether this is a coach you want to work with, but no use wishing a different coach were at your school of interest)
And about our experience, it was a relatively easy path; I had hesitated about stating this so bluntly for fear of sounding like we were bragging, but was encouraged by veterans of the list to just state the facts as part of the breadth of knowledge and experience imparted through this forum. My child was a highly ranked Cadet fencer, and in the top grouping for his year on the Jr points list. He was also consistently strong in pools (i.e., the 5-point bouts), which we assume the coaches knew although he didn’t really ever discuss this directly with them. He started emailing coaches fall of junior year, along with a fencing resume, a “regular” resume, and his transcript. He also said hello to coaches at NACs (politely keeping conversations to a minimum, just introducing himself and indicating he had/would email about setting up a visit). He had some email exchanges with a few of the coaches. As it turns out, he only ever had one in-person coach interview at a school, because he was verbally offered a spot at that school very early in the process (the school was leading as his first choice but he never even had time to rank them) and that was it. There was one other coach particularly interested in him but once the verbal commitment to the first was made, he let the other coach know; he (and we) felt it important to be honest and up front; I’m sure that coach appreciated it, and there were no hard feelings. FWIW, based on what guidance counselors and coaches said, my son would have likely been admitted to an Ivy school even without being an athletic recruit, based on strong academics, extensive extracurriculars (including leadership positions) and meaningful recommendations. This is all to say that when it came time for academic reads and the like, the appeal for a coach must have included confidence that his admittance was a fairly sure thing (or maybe he just helped with a high AI?). He went through the usual routine of reads, extra early application, admissions office interview, LL and Dec. admissions. My son took the application process itself very seriously and took nothing for granted, only truly breathing freely once the officials letters were in hand (or, at least, on the screen ….).
And now the parents can breathe and celebrate too! Sorry for the long-winded post!– hope it can be helpful to others.
Happy New Year!
I am a fencing parent whose DD is a Sophomore in HS currently. She is an Epeeist (current rating B2018) who is interested in fencing for a Div1 or Div3 college. She has some good results at NACs and Summer Nationals (mostly Div2 and Cadet/Y14) and also at ROCs/RJCCs. She is also very strong academically (3.97 UW) while taking only honors and AP classes so far. She is on the Cadet NRPS but not on Junior or Senior point list yet. She has also created a NCAA Eligibility account and has a fencing resume. I found this invaluable fencing recruiting forum a couple of weeks and have been trying to follow the advice and suggestions of parents posting here. Should she submit the Athletics Questionnaire to each of her top choice colleges at this point? Or should she wait until she has her SAT/ACT results (plans to take beginning of her Junior year)? Is it possible to re-submit the questionnaire once she has the standardized test scores? We would appreciate any other tips in terms of academic or fencing from parents of recruited kids.
Happy New Year!
@SpaceVoyager Congratulations to you and your son on your successful end of one journey and exciting beginning of another. Great post. I do find the statement given by your son’s guidance counselor curious. So many deserving candidates with great scores, academics, EC’s, awards, honor’s, etc are rejected by the Ivies every year due to the abundance of amazing candidates. Don’t see how anyone can confidently say that any amazing candidate is a lock. I think the numbers show even the most highly qualified candidate is probably going to get rejected to most Ivies, especially HYPMS. Thankfully your son, and in my case, my daughter didn’t have to find this out ?.
@bkhstips In my case my daughter never filled out an Athletics Questionaire and it was never spoken of with the coaches or Universities. We began to communicate with coaches in regards to recruiting Dec of her Junior year.
@bkhstips: First and foremost, welcome to the thread! Happy to hear that it’s been helpful to you and your fencer so far. I hope you continue to find it a valuable resource.
Regarding your question about Athletics Questionnaires…daughter did not use them initially, instead reaching out to coaches via email.
That said, a few (at least 2?) coaches asked daughter to complete the form — even after some back and forth correspondence via email. Perhaps their AD likes to see the form get some use and/or they use it to get prospects into whatever recruiting funnel they use? Anyway, she was offered a slot at two of the schools she completed the form for…but I don’t think she ever filled the form out at the school where she ended up committing to.
I would wait until you have scores to fill it out though…that, along with fencing results and grades gives the coaches a fuller picture of the recruit’s viability.
I’ll send you a PM with a few additional thoughts…
@SevenDad and @ShanFerg3: Thank you for your insights. It does make sense to wait until she has all her stats before she submits the questionnaire. In any case, it does not seem that important based on your replies.