@stencils…Not so long ago, there used to be a squad championship event…which I think was relay-style like in NACs? I think I may have attended one at Princeton, but I forget which year. I don’t know if the top teams took it that seriously, though…focusing instead on the regular, individually-based NCAA Championship.
@stencils…Div II / Div III meet is a great idea. I’m going to have to disagree with ‘not one team’ idea. It may not be the case with all the teams, but I find kid’s team is indeed one team, very supportive of each other, and proud to be one of the few NCAA sports that is co-ed. As a mom of DS, I want him to have women as teammates. The inclusivity is one of my favorite parts of NCAA fencing- a microcosm of the real world- different genders, ethnicities, levels of talent or expertise, personalities and egos, yet somehow they work together to succeed. It’s a beautiful thing!
Totally agree with @chelsea465 - great post!
One other thought - at “Ivies,” for example, a fencer may sit out the final round of competition in order to protect his/her position on the First Team or Second Team All Ivy list. But how will everyone involved (eg, the fencer and his/her teammates) feel when that decision costs the fencer’s team a match? (Of course, who will ever know that causality with certainty…)
If first place is on the line, maybe it matters. But for the fencer, having “First Team Ivy League” on his/her resume might matter, too, one day. (If nothing else, it’s a great conversation topic in an interview. Of course, “Ivy League Champion (Team)” and “Ivy League Runner-Up (Team)” are, too.)
What’s a coach supposed to do? I’m just glad that I’m not the one who has to make these (hard) choices.
@chelsea465 OK, I get that. Many of the men’s / women’s squads practice together, and stick around at duals where women go one day and men go the other and cheer on their teammates.
It’s still a disservice to the women’s only programs, but maybe that’s the penalty schools pay for only having a women’s team.
I still think it’s odd that National Championships is decided by two fencers per weapon, and the regular season team dual results don’t actually matter.
@stencils - There should always be room for ‘controversial’ topics. Personally, I always found FdN a bit snarky. So, by all means controvert, and let intelligent dialogue prevail!
Fencing in general is odd in the way you describe. Most of our kids discovered the sport after finding team sports unappealing. Often the route to fencing passed through martial arts, tennis and other individual sports. 99% of fencing, for most fencers, is individual. Yes, there are team events at NACs, but these are largely for fun. Team events at international designated events and at World Championships are much more intense, but only a small percentage of fencers ever get to do those.
So, NCAA does stand on its own. Our kids are encouraged form the git-go to set aside their individual goals and to play nice with teammates. It’s a tough sell and many top fencers find it almost impossible to surrender personal glory. Ironically though, when they finally get to this mindset, they are sucked right back to personal glory as the road to NCAA Championships goes through a Regionals tournament offering only 2 berths per gender/weapon/school. Making NCAAs compounds this mixed messaging in that there is a clear team component, yet it all ends in a Final Four for individual Gold-Silver-Bronze.
While I sympathize regarding the unified championship (there is precedent for splitting in the Ivy League Championships), I also think the meaning of “team” championship is diluted if the title is split. One solution might be to add a split component, e.g., some kind of recognition for the teams that actually win the men’s and women’s side of the event. Another might be an entirely new tournament devoted solely to women’s teams/squads to account for such single-sex powerhouse teams. But ultimately, the circumstance that strong women’s schools such as Temple, Northwestern, and Cornell fund only a women’s team is kind of their situation. Cornell used to have a men’s team and there was talk that they were looking to re-establish. Understanding that there may be Title IX issues, these schools make choices and funding or supporting a Men’s fencing team is apparently not a priority.
I agree with Chelsea in that I don’t think NCAA fencing becomes less of a team sport at NCAAs. There is just a strong individual component running parallel to the team events. Personally, I have never spoken to an NCAA Champion who would not give up his or her individual title for his or her team to have the national title. Also, since it is not 1, but 2 fencers rotating through the pool rounds, it remains at least somewhat a team dynamic. There is also a constant awareness of the ebb and flow of victories and defeats going on in the other weapons. This, to me, is the height of team-awareness.
Fencing will never be football or basketball. This is in large part because those sports do not lose their stars to outside national and international events, and certainly not to Olympic Qualifying tournaments. Also, it is exactly because the top fencers compete less during the regular season that other members of the team get substantial competition and even qualify for regionals. If part of the NCAA goal is to have fun, compete as a team, and for more than the ‘stars’ on each team to get a shot, what better way than by making the regular season a series of competitions in which everyone on the team gets to fence?
It seems harsh in some ways that the regular season is meaningless in terms of the ultimate national championship. But as a parent who has injected myself in far more than my child’s small piece of the fencing universe, I am constantly amazed at the glory, achievement, and sheer joy even the least competitive fencer at the least competitive program feels when participating in a meet. This, to me, makes the season very meaningful on many levels even if, ultimately, it has little bearing on the ultimate national champions.
@BrooklynRye To say FdN was “a bit snarky” is being kind. I would never really want this thread to devolve to that level.
I just started thinking when @SevenDad mentioned that you need to consider who was actually fencing when you see a lower ranked teams beating higher ranked teams. For the first time, I realized that for the top 5 or so powerhouse teams, the regular season duals record doesn’t matter. As long as their top fencers get in enough bouts to qualify for regionals, then that’s good enough – and that made me sad. [Edited to add: I’m sure whoever is starting on the top 5 team wants to win, so I’m not implying that they don’t care or don’t try, so please don’t anyone take it that way!]
In comparison, for the other 40ish NCAA fencing teams, winning duals is the whole goal of the team.
Ultimately, I think whether NCAA nationals feel like a team event or more individual is based on your point of reference. If your experience is with a top 5 team that qualifies near the max of 12, perhaps you get a team feel.
Found a link to the “US Collegiate Squad Championship” results…the most recent of which seems to have happened in 2016.
Totally agree. And I’ll add that potential employers respond very well to seeing “team captain” on a resume.
Hi!
Does anyone knows when the Jr point list gets updated? I mean the one that retires year 2000?
Thanks.
Believe it is after DV1 National Championships in April. World Championships (this year the Olympics for Seniors) count for 2020-2021. Summer Nationals/July Challenge starts a new season.
Thank you for your response.
I believe this is true for the Senior points. Jr/Cadet season finished after JOs. I would think they will update it soon.
Yes. Jr/Cadet ends with JOs. The next Cadet/Jr event is World Championships which count toward 2020-2021. Summer Nationals/July Challenge is the first domestic event of the new season.
Thank you @BrooklynRye
The Junior “Age Out” points lists have been posted:
https://www.usafencing.org/current-point-standings
Thank you ??
NCAA Championship selections are posted: https://www.ncaa.com/news/fencing/article/2020-03-10/ncaa-mens-and-womens-fencing-committee-selects-championships
Looks like Princeton, ND, and OSU are the only teams to qualify 12 fencers. Columbia and Harvard qualified 11, St. Johns 10, Penn State 9, U Penn 8. Yale and Duke 7.
Staggering circumstances and a national and international scene shifting on an almost minute-by-minute basis. The only almost totally silent party is the NCAA. IMHO, the organization does not want to cancel March Madness. They will limit spectators, but will ultimately not cancel. Canceling smaller competition, e.g., NCAA Fencing Championships, highlights the lack of action on the big show. So it falls to the adults in the room. Harvard and MIT have already withdrawn from the competition in Detroit. Brown is shutting down as did Harvard previously, including sending students home. Princeton, Columbia, OSU and PSU are doing on-line classes only. The FIE, just recently, canceled/postponed a series of Grand Prix competitions, including the Senior Foil Grand Prix scheduled for this weekend in Anaheim, and the Cadet & Junior World Championships that were to be held. The NBA is also shut down. Personally, truly hope that more schools will follow Harvard’s lead in withdrawing.
This is a really bad look for the NCAA.
The NBA suspends the season and March Madness continues?
I have never believed that college athletes should be paid, however making college kids play in a tournament where professionals suspend their league makes me think the NCAA has too much to lose if they consider the safety and health of their constituents.
I agree with Brooklynrye that the final NCAA fencing tournament should be cancelled/postponed. With some of the bigger programs already withdrawn, is it really still a championship?
Harvard and MIT have shown leadership (with a priority on community safefy). Penn has banned all university-related travel, so I assume this means they won’t come either.
The FIE has shown leadership and taken action with their cancellation/postponement of the Grand Prix.
Major universities have taken serious action to limit exposure and improve safety (my son’s admitted students event in April has already been cancelled).
The NCAA is showing neither leadership or concern for its constituents. It’s all about the money. It shouldn’t be.
While I hope that this crisis is overblown, but applaud the caution, I can’t help but consider that these kids, these athletes, may be cheated out of their once in a lifetime chance to perform in the NCAA tournament. It isn’t all about the money all the time.
All NCAA competitions, including men’s & women’s basketball, have now been cancelled. I understand the necessity, but my heart goes out to all the kids who worked and trained so hard and sacrificed so much for the chance to compete in a championship, and who will now miss out — especially the seniors whose collegiate careers have ended so abruptly. My son had a team meeting tonight, and there will be a goodbye party tomorrow before everyone leaves for home. Such a sad and sudden end to a great year.