The Only College Fencing Recruiting Thread You Need to Read

Maybe colleges are taking this COVID-19 opportunity to clean house. After Operation Varsity Blues, Harvard fired their fencing coach for corruption and retired the athletic director. Yale replaced their athletic director during FBI’s ongoing investigation of the soccer coach before the announcement of OVB indictments. Shortly after, Yale forcely retired their fencing coach of 49 years. Maybe the more niche the sport, the easier it was for corruption to take place. Don’t know enough about fencing, but those kids always act more privileged and better than everyone else because they play “physical chess”. According to NCAA and Ivy League records, Stanford was always at the bottom 10 in NCAA and Brown at the perpetual bottom of the Ivy. Dartmouth never had fencing. They just announced cutting five sports. I predict Cornell is next…

COVID-19 is the perfect excuse/reason to get rid of under-performers, some might even be corrupt. It is Div1 after all.

since Stanford’s inactivity in fencing recruiting and fencing program,the top fencers who eventually go to Stanford’s candidate pool are also excellent academically. We all know how hard it is for the kids to be excelled both academically and athletically.

Fencing is expensive, but not every fencing kids are from rich families. All the high level sports and other extra curriculum activities are costly.

Did Dartmouth have a fencing program?

@ShanFerg3 Never. Club only.

@LimboKid you make good points. I don’t know about Fencers feeling they’re better than others lol. Cornell only has a women’s team, and has recruited well. They did lose their coach to Harvard. But, they seem to be invested in their program. I don’t see it.

Exactly. I don’t see how they factor into a convo about NCAA fencing

@LimboKid - Taking the opportunity to “clean house” as you describe implies that the colleges are using the pandemic as a cover to make unjustified moves, or to make changes that would not otherwise be made but for the distraction provided by COVID-19. This is clearly not the case in every example you cite.

Both Harvard and, I believe, the FBI (I could be mistaken on this count), made it clear that situation was not related to the Varsity Blues operation. It is alleged that the fencing coach sold his home, at a value astronomically above market, to the parent of two students, one of whom was recruited to the fencing team contemporaneously with the transaction. There were also allegations of possible fraud and tax evasion relating to a non-profit run by the fencing coach’s wife.

Yale replaced its athletic director exactly because the school was a target of Varsity Blues. With what apparently went on with the soccer coach, it is no wonder that the buck would stop with the athletic director.

The Yale fencing coach had been in place nearly 50 years and there had been dissatisfaction and moves to remove him well before Varsity Blues. In deference to those who supported the coach, I note that such dissatisfaction was not felt by all. While due to his acquiescence nothing further has come out, there were additional allegations of impropriety that are no longer appropriate to discuss on this forum.

Because they are “niche” sports, corruption is probably harder to perpetrate. First, the pool of money is dramatically less. If you want to look for corruption based on a cost-benefit justifying the risk, I suggest you look no further than big college football. Second, the fencing community is too small to be able to avoid exposure. The fencing community grapevine is exceedingly active and thorough. Just ask anyone on this thread.

This is probably not the thread on which to call out fencing kids for “always act(ing) more privileged and better than anyone else….” Since, as you note, you “don’t know enough about fencing,” I will attribute your comment to ignorance, prejudice, or to both.

It is also inappropriate to Google results for college fencing teams to evaluate the importance of such programs. While success may be the metric at the more competitive programs or for other sports, it is not the case for the majority of fencing programs. College fencing is first and foremost about the synergy between academic and athletic excellence. It is about teamwork and an enthusiasm that rivals any college sport.

I don’t believe these moves were about corruption at all and there is no basis for that inference. While I believe that the current circumstances may have provided an excuse to eliminate programs that were on the chopping block anyway, I find it hard to believe that this is really about money. More will come out for evaluation about the reasons as those in support of these programs speak out publicly.

This is true of fencers recruited to all the Ivy programs, Duke, NW, etc

Fencing does not stand alone. It is a niche sport, together with squash, golf, rowing, and others that have been cut. The circumstance that Ivies are making cuts, even if not involving fencing, is worrisome.

@BrooklynRye I think it’s obvious these moves by Brown/Stanford fencing has nothing to do with Varsity Blues. They discussed termination prior to it. Dartmouth doesn’t even have a fencing team.

When one of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia starts cutting programs I’ll get worried. Dartmouth doesn’t seem to be as dedicated to their sports program.

I never said that the situation at Stanford or Brown had anything to do with Varsity Blues. If you are referring to my response to Limbo Kid, my mentions of Varsity Blues had nothing to do with Stanford or Brown, and was solely in response to his original post. I also never said that Dartmouth had a fencing team. They had a women’s club team back in the day. My point is that the discontinuation of niche sports at Ivies and elite colleges is troubling. The most competitive programs in these niche sports do not compete in a vacuum. As has also been pointed out, there is a domino effect if particular regions of the country, e.g., the West, are sapped of such programs. I am glad that preservation of such programs at the more competitive schools gives you solace. I personally mourn the demise of such programs at any of these schools.

@BrooklynRye I know you didn’t. I was agreeing with you.

I just think there’s zero correlation. Brown and Stanford have teetered on termination much prior to Covid. Dartmouth doesn’t seem to be committed to sports.

Great, so this is a forum where anyone who is not a fencer voicing their opinion or personal experience is attributed to qualities of “ignorance, prejudice, or… both.”

“… inappropriate to Google results for college fencing teams to evaluate the importance of such programs.” So kids should just come to this forum instead of googling official websites and forming their own opinions?

@BrooklynRye You must be a fencer or a parent of a fencer or a coach who is an expert in both the world of fencing and NCAA Div1 sports to make your claims. How many non-fencer athletes do you encounter dying to be on the fencing team? Popularity is important in sports. In high school fencing, I saw only the parents and friends showing up at tournaments. During college visits, I heard the same about niche sports like fencing. Lots of hard working kids, no audience cheering for them. Perpetual money losing machines.

No one is belittling fencing here. Just expressing my free opinion looking from the outside and sharing some verifiable facts. Low competitiveness of Brown and Stanford fencing are simply facts available on NCAA and Ivy official websites. Money driving the cancellations is also a fact but Stanford happens to be the only school courageous enough to admit it. @purplevine2021 Thanks for your truthful, fact-driven comments.

This is an open forum and safe space. No one with different opinions or non-expert experiences should be insulted by some privileged experts giving them labels. By definition, kids and parents get here to learn about things they don’t know enough. Sharing experiences, facts and perception is the whole point - good or bad.

@LimboKid -

Sarcasm aside, that is not at all what I wrote. I was strictly responding to what you said: “Don’t know enough about fencing, but those kids always act more privileged and better than everyone else because they play “physical chess”. Since this is not true, and since you acknowledge that you don’t know enough about fencing, then your comment is either ignorant (i.e., you don’t know), prejudiced (i.e., you have a preconceived perception of fencers as privileged, entitled kids), or both. This in no way denies your right to voice your opinion. It simply exercises mine to respond.

My point about doing a “Google search” is that you are clearly unfamiliar with the metrics of NCAA fencing programs. You probably Googled results for Stanford and Brown fencing and assumed their relatively unsuccessful performances as a justification for terminating these programs. This is not big college sports. These are student-athletes at the best schools in the country. As I pointed out, the mantra for these schools is not win at any cost. It is to excel in your academics, drive toward your post-graduate goals, but be well-rounded through sports. It is not about forming one’s own opinion - By all means, do so. However, forming that opinion via a superficial Google search or reference to Wikipedia does not make you an expert or even remotely aware of a sport you yourself profess to not know enough about.

To what claims are you referring? By definition, a “non-fencer athlete” would not be dying to be on a fencing team. Leaving aside whether I subscribe to the popularity-sports linkage you make, believe me, since you cede me expertise, fencers on top NCAA teams are very popular. Have you ever attended a major NCAA Regionals tournament? An NCAA Fencing national championship? Talk to me about enthusiasm and support after you have attended a few of those. No one is claiming that fencing is on a par with football or basketball for substantial attendance beyond parents, family and friends (and of course other fencers). This is not what these programs are about. Calling them “money losing machines” is silly. In almost all cases, all college sports, other than football, lose money. The fact is that most competitive NCAA fencing teams pay their own way. At top programs there is mega-alumni support. Multi-million dollar facilities have been built, at Penn, Columbia, and at other schools based on this support.

Pardon me if I think that referring to fencing kids as privileged and entitled, citing totally unsubstantiated possible corruption at these programs, and generally demonstrating a lack of understanding of the fencing culture, is belittling. You are free to share your opinion. Your outside perspective, however, is a double-edged sword (ha - get it?). You may bring some objective, practical viewpoint, but you also lack a deep understanding (perhaps even a superficial understanding) of the sport and its unique community. Citing facts without context or an understanding of their significance, is not a useful way to discuss this issue. Of course, the “fact” is that neither Stanford nor Brown were particularly competitive NCAA fencing programs. But these programs were in place and had a purpose beyond winning NCAA titles. This is inherent in the culture of fencing and something you clearly do not understand.

Clearly, no one has closed this forum to you. I don’t know what you mean by a “safe space.” Posts invite responses. Simply because you don’t like the response, does not mean that your safe space was violated. There were ways in which to craft your post that were less offensive to those of us who are one of, or who may be the parents or coaches of “those kids always act(ing) more privileged and better than everyone else.”

@BrooklynRye I’m sorry for being offensive when stating facts without context. But we all see what happens to the world when every apparent fact was up for interpretation by those within that narrow privileged class diverging from common sense of the outsiders, haven’t we?

Wondering where"…a preconceived perception of fencers as privileged, entitled kids" came from? Oh, maybe because “The fact is that most competitive NCAA fencing teams pay their own way. At top programs there is mega-alumni support. Multi-million dollar facilities have been built, at Penn, Columbia, and at other schools based on this support.” So the whole notion that Stanford and Brown cancellations had nothing to do with money was what? Hypocrisy? Thanks for agreeing with me.

“Have you ever attended a major NCAA Regionals tournament? An NCAA Fencing national championship?” No I haven’t but I was told during multiple college visits those were duds. At Stanford they made fun saying West Coast #1, NCAA Top 10! (of 20 or 30 teams?). Brown tour guides actually said no one on campus understood why a team forever among last places in both Ivy League and NCAA even got money to continue. So I’m confused. If I attended an NCAA championship, I would see kids screaming for their #10 or #20 ranked teams. Wouldn’t that be a very short session of cheering?

“In almost all cases, all college sports, other than football, lose money.” Hmmm… have you heard of March Madness? Do you know how many teams play? How much did NCAA and individual teams make last year? Strange how we jumped from fencing to football, like there’s nothing in between.

“…citing totally unsubstantiated possible corruption at these programs, and generally demonstrating a lack of understanding of the fencing culture…” …But Harvard’s coach was caught red-handed by Boston Globe and FBI.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/06/18/bought-fencing-coach-house-then-his-son-got-into-harvard-now-feds-are-asking-questions/SefCGoT7IswTCfA8CrHqRJ/story.html

Yale coach was fired after his 49th year. No direct evidence but theories all over Google. Of course, taken out of context so didn’t matter, right? There’s more: an ex-USA Fencing Olympic coach was removed for siding with some coaching assistant accused of sexual-misconduct.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/saber-fencing-coach-ed-korfanty-resigns-penn-state-sex-assault-claim-20190521.html#:~:text=Ed%20Korfanty%20has%20resigned%20his,of%20the%20Oregon%20Fencing%20Alliance.

You are correct in saying that fencing teams are very small. So that means per student corruption or negative news is a lot more significant, no?

I feel sad to be the bearer of bad news but at least from fact-based observations. Due to Varsity Blue and subsequent scandals, most athletic departments at major schools no longer have the same pull as they did prior to 2019. That’s particularly true for small sports. Some coaches have been asked to furlough even. Fencing recruiting was hurt already in 2020. Does not look optimistic going forward at this point. I predict Cornell is the next domino to fall.

@LimboKid obviously you’re entitled to your perspective. It actually provides for interesting discourse. There isn’t any fencing to be discussed at the moment. I don’t understand the focus on impropriety in fencing. We know the overwhelming cases of misconduct in other revenue sports. Fraud will exist in any arena offering something of value. Fencing programs offer an advantage in admissions at the most coveted institutions of higher learning. This is of extreme value to some.

My opinion remains. The cases of Brown and Stanford are isolated IMO. They’ve been on the cusp of termination prior to anything that would impact NCAA fencing’s current landscape. I 2nd @BrooklynRye’s depiction of the enthusiasm present at Regionals and NCAA Championships. May not be your thing but it is a thing nevertheless. Thank you for contributing to an interesting discourse.

@ShanFerg3 Thank you. I predict Cornell to be the next domino.