Congratulations and thank you for the shoutout. Nothing better than knowing the thread was informative and helpful. Good luck on your fencer’s journey and don’t be a stranger!
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Congratulations!! How wonderful! We were in your shoes not too long ago and know the journey and feelings involved. So excited for your student athlete and your family.
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Congratulations to your child (and you)! This is just the next step. College fencing has been a great and important experience for my son despite many twists and turns. The main thing is the college and college experience, and fencing only adds to that.
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Congratulations to those getting their letters! It’s a very exciting time - do take a moment to breathe and to celebrate!
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@RYNAKEL @PearCake Congratulations!!!
I often hear people say Top32 on the Junior NPRS and Top10 of one’s recruitment year seem to be the “line” for Ivies; are those referring to at the summer after HS junior year? Or after sophomore year?
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Those stats are not really accurate, because the standards vary quite a bit from one Ivy to another. It doesn’t make much sense to make a blanket statement about all Ivies when they have differing recruiting patterns.
Also, coaches look at more than just pure rankings. If you look at the Fencing Parents compilation of NCAA stats, for example, you see that there are numerous fencers at Ivies that do not fall into those two categories. Finally, depending on the year, the top 10 for a given recruiting year might fall within the top 32, but in another year it might take going into the sixties or seventies, as the distribution of top fencers within differing years can vary.
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@MDHopefulDad I will defer to the more senior members on this thread like @BrooklynRye, @stencils, @helmut, etc. I can only speak to my fencer’s experience. College coaches made inquiries to my fencer’s club coach beginning in freshmen year based on the Cadet and Junior NPRS, which leads me to believe that coaches are sometimes scouting prospects a few years out even if they are limited by the NCAA rules regarding the timing of contact. My fencer committed in early September of junior year. The grapevine suggested that the Ivies were working offers in the September/October timeframe so that would be based on NPRS after sophomore year, not after junior year. Still, there are fencers who get recruited much later in the process given the domino effect of commits or perhaps pre-reads that fell through. And as @FencingDad2020 pointed out, there are fencers at Ivies who are/were Top64 on the NPRS. A few other things to consider. 1) Coaches are looking for different weapons/genders any given recruiting year. 2) All Ivies don’t have the same number of spots available. HYP seem to have fewer compared to Columbia or UPenn. 3) Academics really do matter more than the NPRS because the admission criteria are still pretty steep so the coaches’ goal is to ensure the fencer can get through the pre-read. 4) Because of #3, there are opportunities to walk-on for fencers who were admitted outside of the recruiting process.
When you look at a school’s roster, it’s important to make a distinction between recruited fencers and walk ons. In regards to recruitment at Ivies, Top 32 Junior rankings/top 10 in one’s recruitment class is a realistic guideline.
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Yes, I agree with those numbers, but timing is important. Some Ivy spots are filled early like before the winter break of the 11th grade, so fencers want to reach those numbers by the end of their 10th grade. Some slots may open up at the last minute because of the domino effect, AD budget issues, etc, but it’s difficult to predict as the number of recruitment slots vary per weapon/gender each year.
I agree with PearCake’s timetable and qualifications, at least when it comes to Ivies. My fencer was also initially “approached” in a very informal manner by Ivy coaches the summer of freshman year. I would note, with respect to this, that early contact happens all the time at international events, where it appears that all bets are off. I personally witnessed coaches speaking with fencers who they would never approach in the US, including having meals with the fencer and parents, and otherwise having extensive contact.
A fencing-parent who was in high-level security, told me that, when his fencer was engaged in the recruiting process, they found that the coaches had seen his fencer at events dating back to his early teens. My friend noted, “I’m in elite security and I saw nothing!” Apropos of this, at one meeting with a top Ivy coach, the coach noted that he had first seen my fencer when the kid was 12 years old, at an SYC!
At an international tournament, just prior to the start of my fencer’s junior year, 2 of his fencing peers advised that they had committed to a top Ivy. While not binding, each had exchanged emails with the coach, committing to attending that Ivy when they graduated high school 2 years later. My fencer committed to an Ivy in the early spring of his junior year.
The early committed fencers were all at the very top of the cadet and junior points list. All were strong academic candidates as well. My fencer was aware of the top fencers in his recruitment class who were less academically strong. There was definitely some wriggle room for these fencers, even at Ivies, but it was minimal. None of them ended up at an Ivy.
There is also definitely a domino effect. My fencer had one meeting at which the Ivy coach gave him a window in which to respond to a recruitment offer. The coach told my fencer directly that, if my fencer did not accept the offer, it would be extended to another fencer; one the coach actually named. Fencers change their minds, academic prereads do not go well, and sometimes the finances don’t work. Lots of movement can occur during each recruitment cycle.
While I agree with PearCake’s #s 1-4, I add the following supplements:
It is defintely true that coaches look for specific weapon/genders each cycle. However, each coach also has a number of slots and will not hesitate to use that slot for a weapon/gender less-needed, rather than “burn” the slot.
While all Ivies do not have the same number of slots available, e.g., Columbia and Penn have much larger teams, we found the primary difference maker to be the proactivity of the more competitive programs in recruiting fencers. While there may be assumptions that certain top fencers will commit to certain schools, Harvard, Princeton and Columbia were by far the most aggressive in the recruiting process. I do not think it is a coincidence that these are also the perennially most competitive NCAA teams. Penn is not passive, but, in our experience, tends to take its time in most cases, other than with a very sought-after recruit.
Academics do matter and there are pretty strict limits among Ivies. The less competitive NCAA teams are even more strict about academics. But there is room. Not all top recruits meet the classic benchmarks. This is often why you may see less competitive fencers recruited to top squads. Their academics, e.g., standardized test scores, allow for recruitment of someone slightly below the benchmark.
While for the most part walk-ons are as PearCake describes, there are schools that simply do not have enough slots to recruit every top fencer. Because of this, “coach support” is often offered. While the weight of this support varies, it is a great device to get a desirable fencer to proceed with admission on his/her merits outside of recruitment. If the fencer gains admission, the team gets a nice addition without the cost of a recruitment slot.
With a nod to my friend @stencils, discussions about Ivy League recruitment are extremely rarified. Only a handful of fencers will be recruited to Ivies each year, and very few will receive the red carpet treatment of those at the very top. For most, the process is a marathon, rather than a sprint, and there is nothing wrong with this. While some may tend to get lost a bit in the competitive and sometimes elite nature of the process, it is ultimately about getting one’s fencer into the best school for them; more for life than for fencing.
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Thanks very much for you and other’s reply and comments. I am surprised that the coaches have a such early interest in scouting younger fencers. Maybe it varies from weapons and years, but in my fencer’s case, very very few people crack the T32 in their sophomore year, no to mention freshman year. In the fencing parents stats, they don’t even track the sophomore year yet.
Maybe we can slightly change the original guideline to be just Top10 of one’s recruitment year. A few of those Top10 will not make the ivy due to academics etc; for the rest, they are in a good position, even multiple offers.
I concur that some coaches do notice fencers early. I don’t know if it’s for recruiting purposes or just the love of the sport. I kind of lean towards the latter. At least that’s what it felt like in my fencer’s example.
My daughter was a fairly late arrival to National competitions compared to the other top ranked fencers. She came from another sport and had a lot of catching up to do. At a Summer NAC in Salt Lake City, she medaled, and a coach of a prominent Ivy program was handing out the medals. He told her at the podium that he remembered her very first National competition and how cool it was to see how far she’d come. That was a nice moment as well as surprising. He seems to be one of the more passionate coaches. The success of his program reflects that. I took it as he just has a genuine love for the sport and interest in those who are a part of it.
It depends on the weapon/sex. If you look at JWE, four sophomores are in the top fifteen. But if you look at JME, only two sophomores are in top thirty. And then if you look at JWF, you see two freshman in top twenty (but no sophomores).
For the Ivies, there are definitely three groups. The top couple of people are much sought-after, with the coaches reaching out to the fencers. Then there is a small group that may not be contacted but find coaches willing to talk to them as the coaches realize they may not get their first choices. And then the rest are kind of waiting to see how commitments go to see if spots are available. And unlike what you hear about other sports, you still get very little wiggle room on the academics, even if a strong fencer.
Hi everyone!
I am resurrecting an old post I wrote after we went through the process, in case it is useful for those just going through it now. I heard from a couple parents at the time that they found the framing useful so am passing it along. I agree with @BrooklynRye 's perspective and would especially underline one point in the last post: “it is ultimately about getting one’s fencer into the best school for them; more for life than for fencing.”
Consider a couple things: would your fencer be happy there if something happened where they were unable to fence, e.g., an injury, or – let’s hope this doesn’t happen to any more schools – the fencing program is eliminated? Veterans of college fencing probably all have known fencers to drop out when the academics overwhelm them; is the work load realistic realistic for your fencer? This may mean choosing schools where the fencing squad is large enough so that they aren’t under pressure all the time, or it may be really taking a serious look at the specific demands of the school. These are just things for you/your fencer to think about.
Here’s the re-post:
So here’s one framework that might be helpful as you think about the various factors affecting you/your child’s journey to fencing in college:
Things you have more control over:
• Academics. You can never go wrong working to ensure that you/your child is getting the strongest education s/he can. This does not mean being ultra competitive and obsessing over every grade or test. What it does mean is taking rigorous classes and prioritizing school.
• Being well-rounded. Engage in other activities and interests. I know it may sound counter-intuitive to say in this forum, but fencing isn’t everything. Music, debate, robotics, chess, theater, journalism, social activism …. Most Ivies and high level schools want to see some breadth of engagement, but it shouldn’t be just to impress the school, it should be what one is truly inspired to do.
• Being flexible about which schools you are looking at, i.e., don’t get obsessed about only one school.
• Focusing on the academic and other factors “match” of a school. Does the school have the kinds of programs/classes that would otherwise be of interest? Is the school the right size, or in the kind of location you would want? If you have the time and wherewithal [Edit: and, of course, now consider COVID restrictions], visit schools early in the process so you have time to think about where you are most interested.
Things you have less control over:
• How high of a ranking your fencer achieves. Of course one can practice diligently, take lessons, and be motivated, but not every person is going to be #1 (or 2 or 3……). If you read through the posts in this forum, or look at the rosters, you will see that people achieve spots at Div I programs despite not being high-ranking A-rated fencers, and others are happily ensconced at their chosen schools fencing Div III or club. There are many paths to bright futures.
Things you have no control over (so note them but don’t fret about them):
• How many other fencers are in your fencer’s birth year/gender/weapon
• Make-up of any given team/squad (what the needs are for a particular school in a particular year)
• Who the coach is. (You can decide whether this is a coach you want to work with, but no use wishing a different coach were at your school of interest)
Good luck!
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We also have a Likely Letter in hand from one of the Ivies, and appreciate the many thoughtful posts in this thread. It really did have most of the information needed to navigate the process. So thanks for setting this up.
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Congratulations!
Do we have a list of which ivies provide LL, which don’t? I feel we should have enough data from this thread to compile such a list. So that future fencers/parents know when to ask one, and when to just feel peace with a verbal commitment…
While standing in one’s recruitment year is important, it is not as significant as one’s overall standing on the cadet, and particularly on the junior national points list. Depending on the year, a fencer can be in the top 10 of their recruitment class, and not even in the top 60 overall. Fencing recruiters are not unaware of these circumstances. Sometimes you may note that a coach recruited what seems to be a disproportionate number of fencers in a particular weapon/gender. This can happen because there is an unusual glut of elite fencers. However, often this occurs because the subsequent class is particularly weak. Personally, I have seen this happen on more than a couple of occasions.
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From talking to parents and personal experience, I believe that Cornell, Columbia, Harvard, and Princeton give likely letters, as well as Wellesley and Notre Dame. These schools also give email/verbal commitments.
Per the Dartmouth website:
A “likely letter” informs a student that his/her application has been reviewed and the probability of acceptance is high. All Ivy institutions use a small number of likely letters as a way to reassure highly recruited athletes and other outstanding applicants. Most students do not receive likely letters; it’s not the usual path to an acceptance. But if you get one, athlete or not, congratulations are in order!
For sure, there may be some that do not issue likely letters for sports…
Congratulations! Very exciting!!!