The other side of high achievement

Parents Forum
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<p>NJSue says: “Scoring well on a standardized test in and of itself doesn’t tell you much except that a kid is bright, which is not an accomplishment but a trait.”</p>

<p>I don’t completely agree with this. Natural intelligence is one part of the equation that equals a high standardized test score, but it is certainly not the only element. Hard work and studying over years of schooling, as well as time spent specifically on test preparation, are also factors contributing to high scores on the SAT and ACT. There are plenty of smart slackers out there who don’t use their brain power to the extent they could to score well, and there are also those kids who aren’t naturally that bright but who study extremely hard in order to score well. For the latter, and indeed for everyone, it is an accomplishment to get a high score on the SAT or ACT. (Scoring high on an IQ test taken at age 5 is not the same kind of thing.)</p>

<p>That said, it’s best to keep this kind of information to oneself. People tend to take it very personally if they learn your kid objectively did better than theirs at something, because many parents are invested in believing their kid is just “the best!” and are never happy to be presented with evidence to the contrary. The problem is, as was pointed out already, that people do find out these things in a variety of ways. Just a couple of weeks ago our high school held a little award celebration for kids who scored well on a certain exam. The ceremony was held during school hours, meaning D had to get permission to leave one of her classes early. Some students could have overheard D ask the teacher if she could leave class. Secondly, in order to attend the event, my D had to miss the bus to her state track meet which left school early that day, and get taken to the meet a little later by car. Of course she had to ask the coach permission to do that, and he told her teammates who worriedly wanted to know where she was. Later, one of the moms of a teammate made a comment to me about it. Unfortunately, the same day my D also ran fasters than hers, and the resentment was palpable. </p>

<p>I have experienced quite a bit of jealousy from other parents over my kids’ academic and athletic successes, and I can honestly say it was not due to my blabbing or bragging. </p>

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<p>Let me also add that when I am driving my kid to the gym and to various parks all summer long watching her strain and sweat doing her mileage and hill workouts for cross country training, it doesn’t feel like just “luck” or “talent” to me when she runs well come September. While I haven’t contradicted the folks who attribute her success to chance or genetics, I do view the comment as a convenient excuse for their kids, who readily admit they didn’t follow the training program. </p>

<p>It seems it is not PC to acknowledge the fact that some kids actually do work and study much harder than others. No, any disparities must be due only to differences in natural ability.</p>

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<p>My youngest refused to attend any awards ceremonies, ( I doubt she would have even considered attending if it meant missing class or a team event) and some of the awards, I only found out about after the fact, when other parents noted that her name was called.
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Only time she missed something important at school was for her sisters college graduation, and as soon as her sister walked across the stage, Dad & D hightailed it to the field trip site 260 miles away. Unfortunately they werent able to wait till it was even over.
I can see where an individual may feel proud of a test score, or of lifting a certain # of lbs, and thats great, especially if they did so through hard work and not natural ability.
But it is not likely to be impressive to anyone else as they haven’t applied it.</p>

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<p>This issue has been discussed before, but let me say that I’ve witnessed scholarship donors become quite upset when they learned the chosen student recipient did not bother to show up at the award ceremony… Failure to attend may be intended as a sign of humility, but can also be rather inconsiderate to those who planned the event. My daughter did not miss a team event to attend the award ceremony. She just had to find her own transportation to the meet, which she did. If it could be avoided, it would have been ungrateful not to show up when the school staff planned a lovely event with refreshments etc. for a handful of students.</p>

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<p>These were school district awards, “feel good” but no money attached.
I dont think award ceremonies preempt other commitments.</p>

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<p>@Snowme‌ this was not in high school, this was my experience in the physics major in college. I felt that certain students looked down on me and were condescending since I spent so much time studying during my freshman and sophomore years. When we got to junior year, they realized that this is actually what gave me the foundation to do so well in the later years.</p>

<p>It was also something that reflected gender bias. Even though my close friend and I were among the top three most successful physics students, when several other students talks about us, they don’t call us smart, they just emphasize that we work really hard, which is true as we work much harder than most of the other students in the major. This is in contrast to their comments about my other close friend, who they will say is brilliant, even though the three of us basically have the same record of achievement. After a while this was demoralizing for me as I felt that many of the other students (not my second close friend, he is always very supportive of the two of us) didn’t respect my intelligence. </p>

<p>I also think it is harmful to always tell your children they are smart. It’s okay sometimes, I was told this a lot as a child, but I think parents need to emphasize that intelligence is a fluid thing that . Of course you need to have the potential, or a certain level of intelligence to achieve things like greatness in the sciences or other fields, but once you are beyond that, it comes down to hard work and creativity/insight. But creativity and insight need to be awakened with hard work. I like the diamond in the rough analogy.</p>

<p>Everyone will reach setbacks at some point. To get past these, you need to be able to know how to constantly reinvent yourself and the way you approach things (which takes creativity and thought) as well as the resilience not to give up. </p>

<p>Once I learned this, it allowed me to achieve great things, and for me learn to be a researcher at an early stage in my career. When I started research in theoretical physics, I had trouble following what was going on, but as time progressed I started to understand things at a deep level and had new insights about problems I was studying.</p>

<p>Lastly, my issues with test scores are based on the fact that for tests like the ACT and SAT, a lot of it is based on how good of a test taker you are. For example, me and my two friends I mentioned previously mentioned are going to two of the very top grad schools in our science field but all of us were disappointed with our scores on the GRE subject test for our field even though I knew other students who had scored better than my two friends who were certainly not as good as them. I think this is because in our field, the subject test is based on the ability to memorize and take shortcuts which is not something we are comfortable doing as we like to think everything out. This probably made us try to take the test at a pace that made us misread and misinterpret questions. </p>

<p>Many of the top grad schools in our field (even Harvard and Stanford, the schools I was choosing between) think that you can make up for this score in other areas since they know the test is pretty useless (most schools do although some think a good score indicates discipline). UChicago actually told us that they had graphed the subject test scores versus the ratings the professors gave applicants and above a threshold lower than most would expect, there was no correlation between the ratings and the scores!</p>

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<p>One thing about standardized tests which keep coming up with proponents in the US and moreso, abroad is it is good at picking out bright folks who can examine, analyze, and come up with solutions or understanding of the material quickly and efficiently in a time pressured situation. A term often used is “quick studies”. It’s probably a factor why some jobs where this is a requirement…such as a business organizational consultant for a place like BCG, the firm request and evaluate a candidate’s standardized test scores. </p>

<p>However, for people whose academic fields/jobs require a more thorough deliberate meticulous examination where taking shortcuts is detrimental like academic research, a “quick study” is not likely to be the best person for the job. </p>

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<p>A high standardized test score is not the greatest accomplishment ever. It’s not a meaningless accomplishment either. A high score needs to be interpreted in its context. In some cases it could highlight an individual who went above and beyond the norm in applying himself to his schoolwork, and that is admirable. It certainly doesn’t mean the high scorer is a “better person” than someone with a lower score, if by “better” we mean nicer or more valuable. I really don’t think even those parents who are very proud of their high scorers think that. Unfortunately, though, that very thing seems to be what the jealous, offended parties feel is being assumed about their lower scorer. As a result, out of the perceived need for self defense, the high scorers are labeled snotty, arrogant, full of themselves, and so on whether they actually are guilty of those traits or not. It’s regrettable. </p>

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<p>I wouldn’t call someone who scored higher than me on a standardized test except if they bragged about it or criticized my score. I’m not jealous of people who scored better that me on standardized tests. I got into my top choice college and grad school so getting a disappointing score for my GRE subject test was not the be all end all for me. I got into schools that denied a ton of people with perfect scores even though my own score was far from perfect. My SAT, subject test, and APs were different as they were very high, especially the latter two.</p>

<p>There were plenty of kids who did this at my high school. They would tell people their scores and comment on others peoples scores, making disparaging remarks about people with low scores. In cases with minorities, it was worse. One kid said that this girl I knew (who was very smart and had great grades) didn’t need a high score (he thought her score was low) since she was biracial!</p>

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<p>I don’t think I labeled anyone, and Im not jealous.
I do have one kid who loves taking tests and she is good at it.
The psychologist who tested her, is someone whose name you would recognize if you are familiar with research on highly gifted children and she identified her as one of her most remarkable subjects. In fact she and her husband founded an internationally renowned center for gifted education at a major university.
Her best friend took the SAT alongside of her when they were 11/12 yrs old, and while they both did well, her friend opted to skip high school and enter university through the early entrance program. She triple majored but then entered the Peace corps for several years, she then went on to doctoral work.
Mine stayed in her grade, albeit she attended the very top private schools in our region, including college,& grad school.</p>

<p>In retrospect however, I realized that if money had been a concern, she would have gotten an appropriate education in public school.</p>

<p>My other daughter, doesnt usually test as well, but her type of intelligence imo, is **much **more applicable in a wider variety of applications and situations. She also has the perspective at a relatively young age to apply it.</p>

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<p>My comments were not referring to you, EK. However, since you responded, perhaps your comments can serve as an example of how parents get offended. A parent of a less gifted student than your D might be hurt by the sort of comment you made above, since you were implying your D felt she had far better things to do than attend a ceremony in which she would be given an award. Was that because being given an award happened to her so frequently that it had become commonplace and thus meaningless? Or was it that the award event was perceived as beneath her, being a silly feel-good district thing? Or was it that, as a consequence of her superior intellect, she had too many other important pursuits that were more deserving of her time? The parents around here would get upset at implications far more subtle than the ones you seemed to be making. </p>

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<p>I’m the OP. Didn’t mean to start the thread and jump ship. But anyway, part of my point is that I didn’t trumpet the score to the world, it just got out and spread. In fact, my daughter told me that she visited recently with a few of the kids from my hometown at a wedding and they said some of the teachers were talking about it in class. Oddly enough, my son made an identical score last year and I don’t recall any “buzz” about it, but he didn’t take the test at my hometown academy.</p>

<p>Understand that this is a small school in a small cotton town. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that close to 10 percent of the students were descended from my great-great-grandmother, even though I don’t actually “know” many of them as cousins. I was just sorry to see that one student’s success could be so distressing to at least some kids. I’m not quite sure how to prevent that, either.</p>

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<p>Actually the daughter who doesnt attend award ceremonies rarely recieves awards and is the one who doesnt test well. She does not like extra attention, it makes her quite uncomfortable.
For example I didnt know she was graduating from high school " with honors", until I saw it on the program.</p>

<p>Award ceremonies are not designed to take into account everyones schedule.
I also dont understand the point of them.
For instance, she won an award in grade school for being the most improved reader.
She didnt nominate herself, I imagine her special ed teacher did. But the award ceremony was to be on a Saturday morning, when she had a basketball game.
Why should she spend her morning sitting in an auditorium listening to people she didnt know/like prattle on about how the adults had assisted these kids to achieve, so they could all pat themselves on the back?
The way they hand out awards these days, its like preschool where no kid goes home empty handed.
Knowing your accomplishment is enough, you dont always need a trophy too.</p>

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<p>Now I’m projecting, but I expect the reason why some people including myself and my daughter, don’t like awards could be that we don’t want to be perceived as people who do things in order to * get* attention.</p>

<p>It’s one thing to have that as a goal. To apply for a Bausch & Lomb scholar or earn your Eagle Scout, those are exemplary achievements and applicants work toward them with their eyes open.
They know that receiving an acknowledgment is part of the process.</p>

<p>If you value test scores, a high mark there could also be a goal depending on the test.</p>

<p>But to get an award for something that you would be doing anyway?
It feels slightly demeaning, like expectations are so low that an award is needed when you surpass them.
In the case of “most improved”, it highlights that you were behind & needed to catch up, not something most children would want advertised.
They just want to fit in.
They don’t want to be ahead and they don’t want to be behind.
I’m sorry if it hurt anyone’s feelings.
But I am not hurt if they don’t share my priorities, why should they be hurt if I don’t share theirs?</p>

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<p>@emeraldkity4, most improved doesn’t really sound like a meaningful award. It’s surprising they would have a ceremony for that. I don’t know if I had anything like that in my schooling, although the later award ceremonies, like in college only recognize meaningful contributions.</p>

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<p>I believe it was held at the district headquarters, and probably had a student from each school, which is nice, but she really didnt like being in special ed, and I took her out after 6th grade because resource room was basically study hall for her. She studied while the teacher tried to get the more adhd boys to pay attention.</p>

<p>The high school award ceremony, I was surprised to hear about, I think it was because she was getting honors for graduation. However, as a few of her friends were also getting honors and they were also valedictorians,( her school has multiple- one year they had 40!) and some were receiving multiple other awards, she may have felt that what she did wasn’t enough to be recognized. :frowning:
Even though I think she is amazing, not many kids were both in remedial courses and AP at the same time. She also was almost two year behind in math ( not because she failed anything, but because math at her previous school was poor) when she began high school, but because of extra hard work from herself and her teachers, she was at grade level by jr year and so was able to take chem and physics and stats and pre-calc. She even got an A in chem and physics!</p>

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<p>This type of award is most common in elementary schools. I didn’t see such awards much once I left elementary school. </p>

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<p>Yes, as I mentioned, it was an elementary school award.</p>

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<p>I think some people mistakenly assume those who score extremely well on standardized tests are smarter than other people. Unfortunately, I don’t think that they’re all as good at hiding their opinions as they think they are. I don’t believe most families have defensive reactions to those who score higher that cause them to misread the responses of the other parents, and I don’t assume that the ability to garner high scores on multiple choice tests means you’re smarter than anybody else. There are all kinds of intelligence and standardized exams don’t even pretend to test all of them. </p>

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<p>I think that getting a high score on a SAT subject test indicates the presence of studying, but I don’t think a high test score per se on the standard M/V SAT is a surefire indicator of any hard work. There are a lot of bright lazy kids who have high standardized test scores. There are a lot of intelligent mediocrities who can’t harness their natural ability toward any useful end. That’s why overemphasis on test scores as accomplishments can be dangerous.</p>

<p>High standardized test scores are a good thing, but they aren’t the be-all and end-all. I think of the the MENSA bore who can’t get over the fact that he scored at “genius” level even though he hasn’t exactly set the world on fire. That score defines him, even in middle age, and he still can’t stop talking about it. That’s sad. </p>