The Other Side of Vanderbilt: 'Honors Council'/ Will Big Brother Be Watching You?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Vanderbilt University
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<p>Here's the deal, took a glance at the handbook. If you still have not done that, better go to that. You should pay attention to the section on their student-run Honor Council. Not only does this college have an automated online 'Tell Big Brother' link to "Report" your suspicions of your fellow foe, (cough) I mean fellow peers of course. </p>

<p>If you have not read George Orwell's 1984, you probably will not understand this. Let me summarize: A society finds no freedom in that it is constantly threatened by "Big Brother" who with its supporters will torture and punish anyone for their unorthodox views or anything deemed unfit for the party which rules their society. </p>

<p>Back to Vanderbilt. The Honor Council is a student-led and elected organization. Disturbing though is the fact that an "accused" student has no right to an attorney in their hearings. The Honor Council may inflict punishments even before the hearings such as placing a listing on transcripts such as "Incomplete" Honor Council Case. Now, I realize there are students who should get what they have coming, but is it necessary to hold a popularity contest to root out the good guys/gals, give them power to punish, and to top it off deny students basic civil rights they would normally get in a legal society, such as right to attorney, right to have representation and ask questions of the accused. This Honor Council appears to be a ganging up on students by students. </p>

<p>Let me put this into context... Try the play "The Crucible"--People were accused of being witches and burned to their death, without fair trials, without attorneys, without rights to ask questions of their accusers. </p>

<p>Still not convinced? How about our own history? Joseph Macarthey launched a witch-hunt to "root out" communism. It was unsuccessful. Why? No fair trials. No tangible evidence. No rights to ask questions of their accusers. "Right" typically meant "naming names." </p>

<p>So, if you're like me, you're looking at selective colleges like Vanderbilt. But now after applying, I am concerned I made a negative choice. Students should not abuse power. Neither should colleges. If I don't make it to Vanderbilt to help ensure a greater awareness of this issue, I hope someone will be inspired to as a result.</p>

<p>Thank You.</p>

<p>See Handbook at: <a href="http://www.vanderbilt.edu/student_handbook/Honor_System.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.vanderbilt.edu/student_handbook/Honor_System.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>You know, I feel like I have been trying to tell people about my various concerns regarding Vanderbilt and I am glad to see that others are finally starting to see what I do.</p>

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<p>Every student accused of cheating is appointed an adviser to provide support and advice during the hearings. As a student, I don't feel the Honor Council is a system "out to get people". All Freshmen sign an honor pledge and the council exists to maintain the integrity in our institution.</p>

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<p>Do you have any evidence of actual abuse of this system, or are you just saying that this is what could happen, were somebody diabolical enough to actually go around targeting peers (with obvious possible repercussions from the university administration)?</p>

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<p>My HS has an honor council that operates in the exact same way, and we have never had a problem with it. Because the members of the council are elected by the student body, these will most likely be the most upstanding, honorable (some would call them tightass) students there are. It is very unlikely that they will abuse the system. I agree with the OP that the accused should be given more rights, but I think that Vandy's honor council does much more good than harm.</p>

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<p>totally random, but 1984's an awesome book</p>

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<p>I am simply pointing out the concerns... this system can be abused. That's a problem. Will appointing students to discipline students deter the acts? Will administration have a breezy year without that added stress? The answer is simple. We are asking the wrong questions.</p>

<p>Collegejunkmail</p>

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<p>Advisers can only advise on consequences. They are not allowed to question accusers/acclaimed witnesses. This is an unjust undemocratic system that certainly appears to be disturbing to me as an applicant.</p>

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<p>I agree that the accuser should have the right to be represented by an advisor or other professional counsel in the hearing. Also, I believe that the accused should have the right to question the accuser. The system is certainly not perfect. But to be quite honest, this is the last thing I would consider in making my college decision.</p>

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<p>Good Point... It is the last thing I am considering. It may become a determining factor between college acceptances, though I have already been admitted into fairly nice places. Not that anything would be better than Vanderbilt. I acknowledge all colleges have their faults, but this one here seems blatant. I'm surprised there isn't a student filing a lawsuit.</p>

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<p>This thread is ridiculous. I have the potential to set the campus on fire if I don't like an exam grade...does it mean it's going to happen? You can say the analogy is ridiculous too, but the principle is consistent. The administration maintains significant oversight of the honor council...and to be completely honest, if this becomes the determining "factor" when you make your college decisions, I hope you don't come.</p>

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<p>I would hope an Honors Council would not undermine its purpose. I am pointing out that administration, regardless of their busy schedules, needs to take some responsibility too. Tossing it onto the students is not something I had in mind, as I am determining colleges. Frankly, anyone who agrees to such a system would not be a classmate I would converse with. The message that you should let life wash over you without objecting to the things that would make a difference is what creates problems. Maybe there are students who are guilty, but let's be honest, there is no need for a student on student rampage council to underscore the conflicts. Additionally, students do have a degree of privacy under FERPA and allowing students to inflict discipline would tell me that students could be reviewing private records and this would undermine this system again. Your ridiculous notion that denies this tells me you support this and therefore I fear for your mentality. You have rights. Recognize them. Defend them. Never ignore them.</p>

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<p>I think it's important to point out that having an honor council is not the administration's way of easing their busy schedules, as collegejunkmail suggested. If anything, the honor council creates more work for the administration than it eliminates because there is much more need for oversight of a student disciplinary body than an administrative one.</p>

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<p>As someone who is familiar with the Honor Concil (no, I'm not a member of it), I'd like to address some of the concerns you raised. I'll quote your statements, then give my response to them so that I don't leave anything out.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Not only does this college have an automated online 'Tell Big Brother' link to "Report" your suspicions

[/quote]

The vast majority of cases that are sent to the Honor Council do not come from students reporting students; they come from professors and lab TAs. I would say that the overall make-up of the caseload seems to be at least three-quarters of the reports coming from science professors and science lab TAs. I have never of any case, in fact, of a student reporting a so-called "foe" for a violation. As such, it is grossly inflammatory for you to claim that Vanderbilt is an environment where students are out for each other's blood.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The Honor Council is a student-led and elected organization.

[/quote]

[quote]
...is it necessary to hold a popularity contest to root out the good guys/gals [and] give them power to punish[?]

[/quote]

I know several people who are members of the Honor Council and I must say that I know of few people who take their responsibilities to a student organization so seriously. There is a thorough orientation and long training process that newly elected members experience to ensure that they are capable of being disinterested and competent. The election to the Honor Council is far from a popularity contest; remember that there are about 1,600 students per class, so it's impossible for anyone to know enough people to remotely sway the outcome of the election. Also, because these students' applications are first vetted by the Honor Council, they don't let just anyone run for a position on the Council. </p>

<p>
[quote]
...deny students basic civil rights they would normally get in a legal society, such as right to attorney, right to have representation and ask questions of the accused.

[/quote]

Although the students are not able to have representation in the actual hearing, like nymets11 pointed out, each accused student is provided with an adviser, whose sole purpose is to inform them of what to expect and essentially serve as their advocate up until the point they walk into the hearing. Furthermore, the Honor Council takes great pains to maintain the highest level of justice throughout the entire process, which necessarily entails equal skepticism of the accuser as of the accused. As I was discussing earlier, most of the complaints come from professors or TAs, so there is frequently incontrovertible evidence as to what the student did. For example, many of the cases I have heard of involve students getting a test back, changing their answer, and turning it in for a regrade. Professors realized this was happening and began to make copies of the tests when they were initially turned in for grading, so a simple comparison between the two versions shows a clear violation of the honor code. To illustrate the judiciousness of the Honor Council, another case I know of involved a student turning in answers for Organic Chemistry lab from a previous year, so it seemed clear that they had simply obtained a previous student's answers and was turning them in for credit. The student claimed, however, that he was using the lab notebook from the previous year, explaining his questionable answers. As unlikely as this seems, it was such a possibility that the case did not even reach the stage of the hearing because of a lack of evidence. I think it is very unfair for you, who have done nothing but read about the Honor Council's setup, to claim that it does not provide justice to students.</p>

<p>
[quote]
No rights to ask questions of their accusers.

[/quote]

Although the defendant does not have the right to ask questions of their accusers, they are allowed to see who accused them at the hearing. Also, the Honor Council, as an independent body, asks equally skeptical and probing questions to both the accused and the accuser.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am pointing out that administration, regardless of their busy schedules, needs to take some responsibility too.

[/quote]

I am also familiar with administrative action on the part of actual administrators of the University, and, let me say, the Honor Council works through cases much more quickly, efficiently, and deliberatively than I have seen done by the administration.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If I don't make it to Vanderbilt to help ensure a greater awareness of this issue, I hope someone will be inspired to as a result.

[/quote]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, my friend.</p>

<p>If you have other concerns or questions about Vanderbilt, I would be more than happy to try to help you decide if Vanderbilt is the right school for you.</p>

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<p>Wait, is this thread supposed to be a joke?</p>

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<p>I am glad fear of this totally fair system has scared off the likes of the(troll)search. "The other side..." Gimmeabreak.</p>

<p>An honor system or council is a central part of every top university.</p>

<p>Acting honorably has NEVER been punished at Vanderbilt. My knowledge of the council goes back quite a few years and in that time I can tell you I have NEVER heard of one innocent being put on death row. The system is fair, probably too fair to the actual cheater IMO.</p>

<p>And about the arguments of civil liberties and other political issues… moot. A good education will teach you that these protections only apply to interaction with the government. Vandy’s a private place. If you don’t like it, go somewhere else and cheat your way to a diploma.</p>

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<p>If you really disaprove of this system, simply blow it up. Submit everybody, accusing them of everything imaginable. Imagine 4 to 5 thousand accusations coming in at once.... I would imagine it's a nameless system, just create a fake email address. </p>

<p>Normally, I'm not so radical, but I'm feeling it this morning.</p>

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But have you heard of massive cheating that has not been brought to the attention of the Honors Council? Widespread cheating among sororities and fraternities, often for the benefit of the medical students? Yet the people brought before the council are random low-hanging fruit, because no one would want to anger the donors from frats and sororities. And what would Vanderbilt do with a cheating scandal?

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@SandyVandy Well this thread is eight years old but I’ll bite…

By “cheating” do you mean test banks? To my knowledge, test banks are not in violation of the Honor Code or whatever it’s called. If a professor chooses to return tests, they’re yours. If you want to share them with friends, you’re welcome to. Fraternities and sororities just choose to do it in a very organized manner. Any group of friends could do the same. Many other campus organizations do it as well, actually. If you’re talking about something else, I’d love to hear it!

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I’ve seen other posts in which the argument is made that test banks do not constitute cheating Or as you phrase it if you want to share . . . fraternities and sororoities just choose to do it in a very organized manner." Then you widen it to say that groups of friends, many other campus organizations do it. . . It’s an unfair advantage no matter how you couch it, and a “group of friends” will not have the ability to collect years and years of tests on their own. So don’t pretend the sororities and fraternities don’t have a huge advantage. Frankly, that is my point. The “Honors Council” is a joke, because they pick the small fry, make a big deal out of small infractions and turn a blind eye to organized cheating. Just my opinion.