<p>I think there have been other studies that suggested something similar -
that getting lower income kids into college is not just a matter of financial
aid, it is about changing attitudes. I suspect also that you are going to have
to change colleges. We have reached the point where a lot of middle class
families are also challenging the value of a college education. The price tag
keeps going up but the diploma doesn’t generate the kind of respect and
“entry” that it used to. With today’s financial realities I may well advise most
low income kids to avoid the 4 year college trap. For that income level I just
don’t know that it’s worth it.</p>
<p>Congratulations, GA2012MOM. Good for you. :)</p>
<p><a href=“Barrons”>QUOTE</a>:there are dumb poor people of all races.
[/QUOTE]
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<p>And there are smart poor people of all races. Your point being?</p>
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<p>Did you think that was my position, 2collegewego? (It wasn’t/isn’t) :)</p>
<p>I didn’t think I had even mentioned it, but in any case the technical assistance with the college app process is “too little, too late” for the majority of students I encounter who have not even enough long-term motivation to earn a competitive gpa (and the necessary intellectual skill) for admission & success at college. If it were just the college app process, the battle would be much more conquerable. No, I’m fighting lukewarm, or in some cases outright negligent parents (and yes, many of these are upper income, actually). The battle against the homefront is a mostly losing battle. </p>
<p>I wonder why so many parents, of several income strata and several ethnic backgrounds, believe a passion for higher ed will just “happen” automatically in their children. (Did you think it was part of hormonal development? --I would like to ask the absent parents-- Because it isn’t, in case “you” (plural parents) don’t understand that yet.)</p>
<p>No, I didn’t think that was your position. I was addressing the post to you-- and side-stepping the other discussion on this thread. 
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<p>My mom taught school in the inner city for many years and she spent as much time encouraging those kids as teaching them. Over her career, she taught everything from 1st grade to high school. She said she preferred 6th grade because they were old enough to teach but easier to influence. </p>
<p>The thing is, it’s not JUST a passion for higher ed. When kids are left to fend for themselves, they may not have a passion for much of anything. They may not have much direction-- and sometimes that’s all that keeps them away from certain poor choices. </p>
<p>Glad you’re there to champion the kids. My mom did all she could (50 years of teaching).</p>
<p>“My mom taught school in the inner city for many years and she spent as much time encouraging those kids as teaching them. Over her career, she taught everything from 1st grade to high school. She said she preferred 6th grade because they were old enough to teach but easier to influence.”</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the situation in inner city schools is getting much worse every year and the schools that your mother taught in years ago would most likely not even be recognizable to her anymore.</p>
<p>DocT,</p>
<p>Every generation has said that. My mom taught at a school with one of the worst crime rates in the history of the US and she didn’t stop teaching that long ago. She would-- and does-- recognize those schools and there are still kids worth fighting for in each and every one of them.</p>
<p>for most of these kids college isn’t the answer.</p>
<p>for most of these kids college isn’t the answer.
Perhaps you didn’ t ask the right question.</p>
<p>2collegewego,
Well actually (God bless your Mom) that wasn’t mostly the subgroup I was thinking of. In that population I think it is not surprising that for the most part a 4-yr college, or even a 2-yr college (and the ability to get through either) will remain a distant dream for more than half of them. But what I was focusing on were populations that do not grow up in dense poverty and accompanying compromised circumstances. It still holds in those other sectors that a Lone Wolf who is motivated academically when raised in an intellectual void is a rarity. (Or when raised without specific attention to college as the natural step after h.s.)</p>
<p>I do understand and accept that college is not for everybody. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think that everybody can benefit from ongoing education. (I think everyone can, no matter how & what form that education is pursued, whether immediately after high school in a “formal” college setting, whether later in some different form.) But I would hope that those who <em>can</em> benefit from college truly see themselves as having that choice.</p>
<p>Barrons: Blah, blah, blah - boring!!!</p>
<p>“Black Quasi-Socialist Progressive-Fundamentalist Racism Chasers” - Man I’d hate to be in that group!!!</p>
<p>Jeepers Creepers - lighten up.</p>
<p>The census data indicates that only 25% of US high school graduates have a degree from a 4 year institution of higher learning within 7 years after they graduate from HS. It seems that a college degree is NOT the US norm even for those whose parents are not in the approximately 12% of the population that is below the poverty line.</p>
<p>This weekend the Dallas Morning News released a report that over 50% of Texas public HS graduates who attend Texas public universities had less than a “C” average (2.0) after their freshman year. These are students who did manage to (1) get through HS and (2) figure out the application process.</p>
<p>So, what are the “right” questions?</p>
<p>If the reality is that the vast majority of US citizens filling jobs in the US have no 4 year college degree and their jobs don’t require one, is one question how to identify those who can and will actually go to and thrive in college?</p>
<p>Is it the function of the US public primary and secondary school system and the proper allocation of public funds to assist the college capable student in a manner different than what it does for the other students, including assisting in that student’s application process? Well, it is already happening to some degree by offering TAG (talented and gifted) and AP courses in some public schools. Ask yourself, “Advanced Placement” where, if the HS student doesn’t actually go to college?</p>
<p>Arguably, it is appropriate to assist since public resources are used to fund and operate public institutions of higher learning. Just as GIGO applies to data analysis, the reverse is true in higher education: the better prepared and capable the public college applicant/admittee the better the public college graduate. The taxpayer “deserves” the best quality public university graduate possible.</p>
<p>There seems to be some who argue that no assistance in the public schools is appropriate because the US only offers “opportunity” through public education and it is up to each citizen (apparently including kids born into poverty) to make with it what they can. </p>
<p>I wonder if those people, if they had college capable kids who went through the public school system, are in favor of dropping TAG and AP courses in the wealthy public school districts so that the “opportunity” is more equal. Somehow I doubt it. </p>
<p>Just think, if we had true “equality” of opportunity in the public schools, the college capable public school kids would get to compete for and in college with the “wealthy” kids who send their kids to private schools with APs. But, hey, the US public school system is only about equal opportunity for those who do not pay for private education, right?</p>
<p>“Just think, if we had true “equality” of opportunity in the public schools, the college capable public school kids would get to compete for and in college with the “wealthy” kids who send their kids to private schools with APs.”</p>
<p>My son went to an affluent private school in CT with students from all over the world. We pulled him out after 1 month. It was a total waste of money - fewer AP courses than our public high school and less opportunity for EC’s in general. There may be a few private schools that are worth it but from our view, if you live in a middle class town, you’re better off in the public schools.</p>
<p>“I wonder why so many parents, of several income strata and several ethnic backgrounds, believe a passion for higher ed will just “happen” automatically in their children. (Did you think it was part of hormonal development? --I would like to ask the absent parents-- Because it isn’t, in case “you” (plural parents) don’t understand that yet.)”</p>
<p>If you hang around CC for a while, you’ll learn that it is a mountain of work. A lot of that work is done by parents but sometimes the child does all of the work. Higher ed sometimes does just happen but environment can play a big role. If you are in a school where everyone else is going to college and talking about applications, getting good grades, studying, etc., you can be dragged along by the crowd, even if your parents aren’t providing the nurturing environment to point you towards college.</p>
<p>The real fix has to come before college. Many years before college. Teachers and administrators complain about the family environments that they have to deal with. Fair enough. So we need to fix families too. Well, how do you do that in our society? You can’t tell people what to do, how to live, what works and what doesn’t. If the family is at the root of the problem, dealing with the effects in college and even the schools is using an expensive and inefficient approach.</p>
<p>BC and several others are saying exactly what I was saying in my short first post. Many of the poor have so many fundamental problems that dealing with improving the college admissions process is like giving a facelift to somebdy with heart disease, cancer and obesity. They have WAY bigger problems than a few wrinkles.</p>
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<p>I have never actually seen that happen IRL. I have heard about unusual cases, but in the overwhelming number of cases I have seen throughout my career in education, students whose parents are lukewarm about college will be lukewarm themselves about that, and certainly as an immediate goal after h.s. This includes students whose peers are academically ambitious.</p>
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<p>I’ve been hanging 'round 4 yrs longer than you, actually.
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<p>“Can”: anything’s possible, but the reality is that it is rare. OTOH, the opposite is often true: It is more probable (happens with much greater frequency) that you can buck a slacker crowd – given determination coupled with supportive parents (regardless of whether parents were educated or not). I do see this happen IRL, often.</p>
<p>DocT–here are the govenment stats for private schools for the seniors of 2006-07. Unfortunately, for many Americans there isn’t a middle class town school option. In comparison, the State of Conn has a population of 3,501,252 while the Houston ISD has 210,292 students and the Dallas ISD has 161,244 students.</p>
<p><a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009313.pdf[/url]”>http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009313.pdf</a></p>
<p>These stats show that there were 306,605 private school seniors for 2006-07. Looking at Catholic schools and Non-sectarian Regular schools (not special needs), the graduation rate was in the very, very high 90s and the progression to a 4 year college in Fall of 2007 was bewteen 80.1 (Non-Sec) and 84.7% (Catholic)</p>
<p>The point of my post was that it is easy to argue for letting family environment take its course when you and your kid are upper middle class in a very good upper middle class public school district, but few are in these circumstances AND most parents don’t really want equality of public school opportunity if it means that “equality” would put their kid at a disadvantage for college admission.</p>
<p>Assuming that at least 10% of the total private school graduates came from college prepatory private schools, that means that 30,000 college applicants came from educational programs that provided all the APs and ECs a student could handle. My S’s graduating class of 2007 had 87 students of which 25 were NMF and 24 were commended. All went to 4 year colleges. On average, 28% of this private school are non-white and this 1st-12th grade private school provided scholarships based on need for the private school tuition. It really can and does counter the family environment. One AA scholarship graduate from his school went to Stanford on 100% scholarship. </p>
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<p>Well, it can’t be more expensive and less efficient than dealing with the effects in the increase in crime and the cost of the criminal justice, prison and parole systems.</p>
<p>What one small cherry-picking private school ( I assume you apply to get in and admissions are selective) can do with a handful of students has no significance whatsoever for the larger problem. BO had a similar high school success but was that due to him and his efforts or the fact that his remaining family had a great focus and valued education that guided him to his success? </p>
<p>Kansas City had a great experiment with providing enhanced spending and splendid new schools for the poor students of KC. The results–not much better than before. Family and social pathology trumped all spending.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html[/url]”>http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html</a></p>
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<p>Perhaps not. But by changing the trajectory of one student, you can change the whole life pattern not only for them, but for his or her kids, grandkids, etc. Over time, we could be talking about hundreds of people who were put on a different path. </p>
<p>I wish we could find a way to help more kids. Research in our area has found that for many Hispanic kids, school stops when the bell rings in the afternoon. Elementary and middle schools have put on programs to help Hispanic parents learn how to be involved in their kids’ education more. Seems to be helping.</p>
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<p>I’ve seen many posts here with kids saying that they’ve taken care
of the whole process.</p>
<p>I took care of the whole process when I was in high-school. One
parent was missing and the other worked two jobs and wasn’t around
most of the time. The forms were easier back then but I still had
to do everything myself. My sisters did the same thing.</p>
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<p>We lived in a school district where the vast majority went to college.
We were a very poor family in the district. I just did what everyone
else was doing in taking tests and applying to colleges.</p>
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<p>Yes it can be. If you have to pay for both.</p>