The payoff for a prestigious college degree is smaller than you think

Yes, in those industries, from what I understand, especially the white shoe firms, hire primarily from selective and prestigious schools. But not exclusively. My MBA program (Minnesota) was not in that group, and yet McKinsey, Deloitte, Coopers all hired there. (this was a few years ago)

But most graduates are not going into these fields. At Harvard, it’s less than half going into consulting or finance. For someone planning on attending law school or med school, your GPA and LSAT/MCAT matters as much as your school.

And yes, correct. A student that goes to a top school could very well be the friendlier candidate. But my point of the lawyer example was that even her top notch education couldn’t save her career.

Your career path in business has a lot to do with how aggressive you are, and also your likeability. I work in tech and I have found that many of the top executives I meet are very likeable people, much differently than I expected. And surprisingly, one school sticks out among many of the top people I meet–UCSB. I find many UCSB graduates well adjusted, bright, and very competent. It’s a very good school, but not prestigious or pretentious.

I believe you are just as likely to get a job based on experience, major, and especially your personality (whether you click with the interviewer), even over your school.

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Yes, it is about economic choice and certainly not limited to college choices. It’s also about where you live, the car your drive, and more. But few things other than housing cost more than a college education these days, so it’s an important choice.

And as the OP titled this thread, the payoff is probably smaller than you think.

The definition of delusional has two meanings:
-characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

-based on or having faulty judgment; mistaken

My reference is more to the second, not the first, definition. I certainly don’t think that choosing a prestigious school is a symptom of a mental disorder, and it isn’t having faulty judgment, if the price is right.

I just think that choosing ANY school for a lot of money (for me, it’s $250K+, but for others, it’s $100K or less) is based on faulty judgment, unless the payoff is that obvious (like a job working on Wall Street). But your mileage may vary.

It appears we now agree that many prestige “white shoe” companies prefer an elite pedigree. We also agree that graduate medical, law and business schools acceptances are driven by test scores and gpa but it is statistically irrefutable that elite schools are significantly over represented at top grad schools. You even acknowledge that you personally would choose an elite pedigree job candidate over a non elite all things being equal.

To me those are a lot of doors being opened, such that delusional hardly seems like a fair term.

Relative value is an entirely separate discussion and debatable. I would agree it is not worth it (or needed) for everyone to be equally successful but all things being equal elite schools do offer some advantages.

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They do, clearly. But I think we also agree that your major and work experience can have an equal or greater impact on your job prospects. And it’s not often that “all things are equal”.

Going to some of these schools is a unique experience. ( I personally love Stanford, not because of its selectivity, but the campus is beautiful, it’s near some cool areas, and it has it all…academics, big time sports, great weather, and more). But Berkeley has the same draw and it’s 50% of the cost.

The question is whether the payoff is worth it. Would I pay $70K/year to go there? Maybe, but also maybe not. Fortunately, it’s equal to some out of state schools, which makes it even more attractive to me.

This thread is more about value than anything else. And people, as we can see, can easily disagree on what the definition of value is to them.

As recently discussed in another thread, higher score/GPA kids are overrpresented among students who attend “elite” undergrad schools, so “elite” undergrad schools would be expected to be overrerpresnted at selective grad schools, even if admission to grad schools was purely based on stats, without considering name of college at all. Just looking at grad school matriculation totals in isolation tells you very little about whether grad/profession schools are focusing on prestige of undergrad college name, or even of college name has any influence at all in their decision.

Prestige of college name can be important for “elite” banking and consulting, but these industries are more the exception than the rule. The vast majority of employers place little weight on prestige of college name, as was indicated in the earlier survey. And among the small minority that do place significant weight on the college name, some would certainly favor the state flagship kid over the “elite” private kid all things being equal. This is more likely among companies located near the flagship that have a good network and history of past hires. Some persons in hiring positions have biases – both towards./against “elites” and towards/against their state flagship

sbdad12 indicated he works in tech. I work in tech as well, which may relate to part of difference in opinion. I majored in EE. In most fields of engineering, prestige of college name has extremely little to do with hiring decisions. The most desired companies often regularly recruit from state flagships or other nearby colleges with quality engineering programs, so flagships often have strong networks, which can lead to recruiting and hiring benefits that would not be found at an Ivy or similar generic prestigious college.

For example, if you want to be an engineer at Qualcomm, UCSD is likely to provide a lot of special recruiting, networking, and hiring benefits that would be far less likely to occur at Harvard or Yale. San Jose State has similar benefits with the nearby Apple headquarters. Engineering recruiting, networking, and hiring generally has little to do with which college is most prestigious. Quality of engineering at the college, concentration of likely hires, and past experiences can be influential; but the most prestigious colleges often do not excel in these areas for engineering (non-Cornell Ivies, Chicago, most LACs, etc…).

Instead employers generally focus on which applicant is likely to do the job well based on past work experience doing something similar (past internship at company is ideal, similar work at other company is also good) and having a desired skill set, so the hire is likely to be able hit the ground running without having to retrain everything that he/she should have learned in their engineering major. It’s common for engineering new jobs to require a specific related major and test applicants on related technical skills during the interview, rather than expecting a bright kid will be able to figure it out if hired.

That said, while I expect only a small portion of college students are interested in “elite” banking/consulting, this group is tremendously overrepresnted at certain “elite” colleges. In the new Harvard senior survey, 40% of grads who plan to enter the workforce said they will be initially working in finance or consulting. I wouldn’t be surprised if some other Ivies have an even higher percentage, such as Penn. This seems to be a popular career path among kids at “elite” colleges. I suspect a good portion of the appeal relates to the companies maintaining a similar aura of prestige/elite/exclusivity/top/… like certain “elite” colleges.

From an individual student’s perspective, whether the prestigious degree pays off or is expected to have a good ROI compared to alternatives depends on many factors. Some of the many relevant factors include planned major, employment goals/desires, difference between cost of "elite’ vs alternatives, family financial situation, how the student is likely to function in big fish vs small fish environments, what types of unique out of classroom opportunities the student is likely to pursue, and what the student hopes to obtain from the college experience beyond career earnings/goals. The answer will differ for different students.

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I see a bit of conflating between out of state public and private schools in terms of cost. Outside of Michigan, which I believe is the most expensive public school for out of state students, there is actually a sizable price gap between OOS public and private schools.

Most private schools cost between $53k and $60k in tuition and $15k and $18k in room and board. Throw in miscellaneous, and the total cost is $70 to 80k.

Most of the out of state pricing, at least for the schools I have looked at, is $30 to $40k in tuition, with most on the lower end of the range, and about $12k in room and board. That is $45 to $55k all in, with most of them on the lower end of that range.

There is also still a lot of using Harvard as a proxy for all private schools. Harvard is a proxy for Harvard, not the prestige private liberal arts or national private universities like UAA schools, Rice, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest and Northwestern. Or even the lower Ivies for that matter.

There is a reasonably high chance that my S22 will be choosing between some private schools in that range and the top publics. 100+ posts of arguing about Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford/MIT are less helpful for us.

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The hyper focus on finance and management consulting on CC to prove that elite schools opens doors is always interesting to me because no one peels back the stats. Particularly for consulting, while there is a sizable percent of the class going into consulting from Harvard, eg, only a very small percentage of those are going to MBB. The rest are going to lesser consulting firms that recruit far more widely than MBB (eg, Deloitte, Accenture, Big4). For the non-MBB consulting students, Harvard didn’t open any doors. You could even argue that some of the non-MBB consulting students would have had a better shot at MBB coming out of a less competitive pool. My DD’s scholarship program at a state flagship has no problem sending most who want consulting to MBB.

I’m not saying these schools don’t open some doors for some students. I’m just saying that those who think elite positions are handed out to everyone who attends will be very disappointed. The truth is always more nuanced than some people want to believe.

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And thank God for that - lest we have a glut of aspiring Gap sweater-folders :grinning:

The path to running your own start-up may be easier at Harvard (and there’s definitely more money to suck up to) but that doesn’t preclude a driven, motivated student from Utah State or the local community college from doing the same. Look around - financial success comes in many shapes and forms. The high-school educated landscaper that does the work for my husband’s construction company just built his 2nd beach house with a 1.6 million dollar price tag. I’m certain he doesn’t waste a moment’s sleep on regret that he didn’t attend at T20 school.

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The mistake that is repeated over and over in this thread is the assumption that State U is cheaper than the “expensive” private college. For many, many families, the private college - prestigious or otherwise - is the cheaper option.

What individual states charge for their state universities. Some are very cheap and offer great financial support - New York, for example. Others are not all that cheap. Where I live, tuition, fees, room and board is now $32,000 before books and other expenses. YMMV.

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I don’t think anyone is making that mistake. I’ve only been talking about full pay private options. The ROI is different when financial aid is involved that makes the cost much lower than list price.

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Thankfully I am not sure I read anyone suggesting that elite positions are just handed out to EVERYONE. Part of being nuanced is avoiding the extrapolation of ones own unique experience and believing it to be statistically meaningful.

At a large state school there are students who win prestigious awards, get amazing jobs and are accepted into tippy top grad schools. At elite schools some students experience similar successes. The reality is that as a percentage of their peers the elite students garner these accolades and opportunities at disproportionately high success rates relative to their non elite peers. We can debate by how much or by what percent but statistically going to a high prestige school opens doors.

You often hear people reference the fact that typically only 10-15% of Fortune 500 CEOs are from Ivy League schools. So yes obviously great heights can be reached from non elites, but keep in mind Ivy matriculation in total is less than 1 percent, so this representation is dramatically higher then one would expect.

Yes you can become the president of the United States without an Ivy pedigree but 16 former Presidents had Ivy backgrounds.

Yes you can become a Supreme Court judge without an Ivy degree but a disproportionately high number of current and former judges have some connection (both UG and Law).

Nuance requires the avoidance of anecdotal or individual experiences to make broad conclusions. While there will always be exceptions (The Gap cashier from Yale), you are statistically (as a % of peers) much more likely to receive awards, get prestige employment or gain admission to an elite grad school attending an elite vs a state school.

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“Elite students” is not the same as “elite schools” and one shouldn’t conflate the two.

With regard to “accolades” it’s also true that students at elite schools have a disproportionately high rate of winning other accolades before college like NMF, but the fact they now attend elite schools didn’t help them win those. Is any given individual more likely to win (say) a Rhodes scholarship by attending an elite school or a less prestigious school? That comes back to the big fish in a small pond argument: some kids thrive more in one situation than the other. But I will say that many lower ranking universities are laser focused on supporting their top students in competing for those sorts of accolades in a way that goes beyond even the level of support at HYPSM type schools, because of the credibility boost it provides to the whole university. Percentage of attendees winning these ultra-selective awards is irrelevant in that context, and is certainly meaningless for your kid or any other individual trying to choose a college.

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I understand that you and many others have only been talking about full pay options.Why?

The best financial aid at any colleges is typically at the most prestigious colleges and universities where most - if not all - meet or come close to 100% of need. So, why are we talking sticker price and comparing that to the cost of State U, which in many cases is pretty expensive in its own right.

How many posters are driving around in a $50-60,000 Lexus or similar priced car and then trading it in after 4 years? Anyone can have very good transportation for half that price and put $100+ grand saved toward the cost of college. And there’s no return on investment from driving an expensive car.

We all have choices about how we spend our money. Cars and colleges are just two examples. This argument will never be resolved because there is no right answer despite all those who insist that State U is the smarter choice and the better ROI. Thus isn’t something in my investment portfolio. It’s my kid.

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I was responding to the “do elite schools open doors”contra narrative. Your comments seem to go accept that they do open doors but addresses a possible reason why.

I would agree that elite students and schools are not one in the same. Elite schools however have more elite students and surround them with amazing resources, alumni, name recognition etc.

Once again hard to parse degree of contribution but all these factors result in statistically meaningfully preferred outcomes at elite schools. I am speaking about the broad outcomes across an entire student body while you are talking about the laser focus of the exceptional one off student.

Using your analogy being the big fish in a small pond is undeniably great but the selection process, resources, reputation and alumni network at elites suggest just being in the big pond has statistical advantages for those who can get in and afford it. a

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I am not sure what you are saying here. Statistically meaningful outcomes in what? Relative to what? Please provide source data.

I provided several up thread. Here is a representative example.

Clearly these elite schools are “over represented “ versus their collective proportional size relative to the entire college population.

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Statistically meaningful outcomes and data sources are relevant to discussing outcomes for groups. But they’re not relevant when the population under consideration is 1, and that one is my kid.

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@sbdad12 has a revealing comment in post #219 above:

“And if the ASU kid was in the honors college…”

You have said this a few times. Are you saying that a student that would get 100% of his college paid for at an prestige private would not get the same outcome at a public? I honestly do not understand what you are talking about, and would like to understand this better.

We aren’t full pay, but still face a similar decision. Do you pay some money for the State Flagship or a private with aid or make your kid take the full ride or full tuition scholarship.

We decided to let our son choose and not force him to pick the cheapest option. Most people we know say that’s a waste of money and why would you give up a free education :woman_shrugging:t4:

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