Indeed. The same kid is not going to be both a middle of the road student at Stanford and ASU. And it’s usually going to be easier for a very talented kid to be one of the top 3 students at ASU competing for a Rhodes scholarship as opposed to one of the top 10 students at Stanford doing the same.
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This argument will never be resolved because there is no right answer despite all those who insist that “elite” U is the smarter choice. It won’t be resolved because the answer is it depends. Yet for some reason, people seem to want to continue the argument/discussion. And will again next time the issue comes up. Maybe there should be a pinned thread at the top of the board where the “Is it worth it” discussion could continue (endlessly). Though post counts for some people may well drop and new threads would be down as well.
Peers are an important part of the educational process.
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Exactly, I have the same questions. For the large number of families who can’t afford their EFC (however each school calculates it), meet full need schools that don’t give merit are not an option.
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No one is saying that the average student at Stanford won’t have more opportunities than the average student at ASU. But that’s irrelevant, you are comparing apples and oranges.
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Do these statistics consider only the undergrad degree, or are they counting MBAs, and other grad degrees?
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An example of the sort of student for whom grabbing the opportunity to be the (full pay) middle of the road student at Stanford was exactly the right choice, was my D’s high school boyfriend. In CC terms a typical average excellent student with decent ECs, not an academic superstar, never going to be voted class president or “most likely to change the world”. But happily for him one of his parents was a high ranking administrator at Stanford, so of course he got in. And I’m sure will do fine, go to law school and get a well paying job.
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They are counting both under graduate and grad. But that is where the virtuous circle of elites school is most on display.
This is from a Forbes article on top Business schools;
“Some findings were no surprise: Nearly a quarter of the HBS class of 2020 has an Ivy League undergraduate degree, and some 21% of admits worked full-time for McKinsey, BCG or Bain (MBB) at some stage between college and heading to HBS.”
With Ivies representing less than a tiny fraction of all college students a 25% footprint is huge. The article goes on to to suggest it is similar at all of the top grad schools. Additionally I have already detailed how and why this over representations manifests itself at prestige employers.
The circle is as follows: highly selective process in order to be admitted which in turn creates strong base of students, provide great undergraduate resources which leads to better acceptance rates to both grad schools and career experiences sprinkle in a committed alumni network and societies affinity for name brands and I think it’s safe to say it is not delusional to believe elite schools open doors (which is what prompted my initial response).
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Of course, you could ask what’s the ROI* of being a Rhodes scholar. People usually don’t ask because it’s considered an honor worth pursuing in its own right. I would suggest that this applies to top universities (HYPSM and some others). It’s understandable that anyone who gets accepted will want to do what they can to pursue a degree from those as a feather in their cap, not as part of an extensive cost-benefit analysis.
There may be other reasons for people to pursue a “unique experience” if their family can afford it. I have a good friend who went to Swarthmore. Some people understand how selective it is and may be impressed. Other people have just never heard of it. I don’t think it helps in tech at all to have it on your resume.
Where I would draw the line are colleges that are merely expensive and no more selective or noteworthy than solid public universities (not only the state “flagship”). Even then, if a family can afford it they may have their own reasons.
*A quick search shows that Rhodes scholar Kris Kristofferson’s net worth is significantly higher than comparable “outlaw” Willie Nelson, so perhaps my skepticism is misplaced 
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The thread title is: “The Payoff For A Prestigious College Degree Is Smaller Than You Think”.
The thread title raises two issues:
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How do we define “prestigious college degree” ?
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How is “payoff” defined ?
I include graduates of large public university honors programs / honors colleges in the category of “prestigious colleges degrees” just as I view Army Green Berets & Navy Seals as prestigious.
Additionally,I include graduates of highly selective undergraduate programs–business schools for example–as earning “prestigious college degrees”. Many, maybe most, University of Michigan business majors claim to have graduated from Ross rather than from Michigan.
As an aside, a subtitle of this thread could be “The Cost For A Prestigious College Degree Is Cheaper Than You Think” = due to merit scholarships at large state public honors programs & honors colleges as well due to generous need based financial aid from the most highly ranked US colleges & universities.
“Payoff” can be defined as “higher likelihood of graduating”, “establishing better life-long connections”, " superior internship & full-time job opportunities", “better overall higher education experience” as well as in regard to financial compensation. Furthermore,any individual may define “payoff” in accordance with his or her values & priorities.
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At least that is what Willie Nelson wants the IRS to believe.
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And Willie, much like the honey badger, “don’t care”
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I thought it would be an interesting exercise to compare the number of winners of prestigious graduate fellowships from Harvard’s Class of 2021 to my DD’s 2021 scholarship cohort at a state flagship, since that’s a good comparison of similar caliber students. I limited the graduate fellowships to the large international ones (Rhodes, Marshall, Schwarzman, and Knight-Hennessy). Harvard had approximately 21 total winners (approximate because some of this year’s winners were prior year Harvard graduates). There were approximately 1,700 students in the class of 2021. My DD’s scholarship cohort had 23 students and had 3 winners. So that’s 1% winners for Harvard and 13% for my DD’s scholarship cohort.
I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.
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There are folks with a BS in chemistry who out-earn Nobel Laureates in chemistry by a factor of 10 or 20. Does that mean that the “ROI” on a Nobel prize is somehow “less than”?
This mode of thought is fascinating. Is Dr. Fauci “less than” because he chose a career in public service when he could have boosted his ROI by making “better” choices?
I think the angst over this (and related issue) serves as a smokescreen to a couple of big problems in higher ed.
1- Predatory and low-value for-profit colleges who take advantage of first gen students who think they need a degree in “court reporting” or “tourism management” to get a job as a court reporter or hotel assistant manager.
2- Weak quantitative and critical reading skills on the part of parents and students who read their promissory note documentation and do not understand the terms of their loans, the payback requirements, etc. This is especially problematic for Parent Plus loans, and for people with bad credit who have already demonstrated a poor understanding of personal finance.
3-Weak HS Prep for a not-trivial portion of the “wanna go to college” population, which means a year (or more) taking remedial classes (often failing those classes), being channeled into college level classes which they are not prepared for, the endless churn of registering for a full load, dropping down to one class, running out of Pell without a degree, etc.
It’s too hot today for me to get worked up over a kid at Villanova who could have gotten a “better than” degree at Penn State!
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My conclusion is that your analysis is weak without many more facts which are not in evidence.
What happens when you add in Fulbrights et al??
Why do you assume that the entire Harvard class is the “cohort”? Many of them are not. There are international students who have already committed to return to their home country (for military service, for example) who are not in the pool at all, and a large chunk of the class who have zero interest in any sort of fellowship since they don’t want to attend grad school. So if your denominator is wrong (by a very significant margin), my conclusion is that your math is faulty.
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Sorry S was responding to I. Once again congratulations to your daughter, she sounds amazing. I remain cautious however when drawing broad conclusions based on personal or limited data points. As examples….
“Curious to know which universities produce the most Fulbright Scholars?
During the 2018-2019 academic year, 35 students at Brown University were awarded Fulbright grants, setting the benchmark. Princeton University followed closely behind with 33 Fulbright Scholars. Georgetown University and the University of Chicago each tallied 30 Fulbright Scholars, while the University of Pennsylvania rounds out the top 5 with 27 grants.”
Significant elite over representation for a small minority community. So far I have shown data supporting this trend for Fortune 500 CEOs, top graduate schools, specific prestige industries, Supreme Court justices Presidents of the US,Fullbright and Rhodes scholarships. I have also detailed the virtuous interplay that fosters this result. I am happy your daughters experience appears to have been the exception to this trend.
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“Are you saying that a student that would get 100% of his college paid for at a prestige private would not get the same outcome at a public?”
I didn’t say that.
What I am reacting to is the numerous posts in this thread which talk about ROI, which by definition relates outcomes to cost on the front end. The general consensus seems to be that privates aren’t worth the cost, given that the same outcomes can be achieved at a cheaper cost at a public.
What I was alluding to in my post that you quoted is that cost at prestige privates varies with the student and family. The assumption that the prestige private is flawed because for many students the prestige private is actually cheaper than their State U.
So bottom line is that ROI varies depending on the amount invested in the first place.
The implication in much of this thread seems to be that the norm at prestige privates is to pay sticker price and that only the exceptions get a discount. At schools like Rice, Cooper Union, and Olin, discounts are routine. At the Ivies and similar schools, both, largue and small, they claim to be need blind in admissions and I assume they are for the most part. That being the case, many of them could easily have most students paying a reduced amount.
So, I repeat, why are we talking sticker price as though that’s the standard amount?
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By that reasoning, your analysis is weak too. Why do your caveats not apply to my DD’s scholarship cohort too? For example, lots of them did not apply to any fellowships or have any interest, same as at Harvard. If I had limited it to applicants, my DD’s cohort would still likely have a higher percentage of winners. I’m not the one making broad brush statements about elite schools. My post addresses precisely those making broad statements about students who attend elite schools and illustrates a flaw in their reasoning.
About 45% of Harvard students in each class are full pay. That is going to be fairly similar at other elite schools. And of the 55% getting financial aid, there are plenty who are not getting a huge discount.
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I’m going to disagree with you here. Most of the out of state schools my daughter considered (Wisconsin, Washington, Oregon and CU Boulder) are nearing $60,000/year all in. UT Austin is $57-$64K.
And as you mentioned, Michigan is close to about $68-$72K.
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