One thing that doesn’t seem to be mentioned is the students. If you have the aptitude to get into the selective school you are likely going to be among the top students in a less selective school. How do their graduation rates compare? How are those students faring in job opportunities and wages? Less selective universities can often give students who wouldn’t be admitted to more selective universities an opportunity to shine. They may discover a previously unknown love of learning or a path that truly interests them. I think it also depends on the students chosen path. Pre med/health, engineering, etc. For the average excellent student (thank you to the person who penned that) it might not make a huge difference as long as the school prepares you. All in all while elite schools are excellent it is the student who will drive their future. The school is merely the vehicle.
@lvvcsf Agree, not all those who gain acceptance at elites are going to thrive. Likewise, many at non-elites are going to carve their own path. That’s the essence of the debate. Does the individual drive their destiny despite the school or does the student rise higher than would be expected due to the elite education?
Personally, I’ve seen both. Ideally, the student will have the drive and the elite education. Makes it so much easier.
Lol, that someone was shut out of funding due to Wharton MBA. As B schools change their curriculum to be more nimble, many folks will have a B school degree esp. tailored for their field.
I’m old and still remember when interviewing and having a graduate degree drew a blank look. No longer the case. Students invest in pretty specific paths these days for education with rare exceptions.
BTW, Harvard has been saying they are going to revise their program for a VERY vey long time. Any reader of their magazine will have read about it for the last several decades.
IMHO, if my kids were pursuing an MBA, I’d advise a pinpointed approach with specifics in their field of interest. Any program can teach the basic skills. It’s the detailed study that will bring the best ROI. It’s not that Harvard has diminished. It’s that it’s become obsolete in a world where technology is rapid and continually evolving.
This article ignores race and ethnicity. Studies repeatedly show that for Black and Latino students, there is a much larger “payoff” for a prestigious college degree. Break those stats down by race (and then gender) and you’ll see a different story.
Edited to add:
Before you start attacking me, I am not suggesting one should go into significant debt for a prestigious college degree.
Very surprised that Columbia is not on this list despite it being located in New York City.
Example: Brothers Steph and Seth Curry were both 3-star recruited players coming out of high school. Steph Curry was a good HS player who went to a terrible college basketball team and became a 2timeMVP and 3timeChamp in the NBA. If Curry had gone to a NCAA powerhouse (like his brother Seth did to Duke) he might not have gotten the opportunity to perfect his talents. Because he was clearly the best player at Davidson, Steph was allowed the opportunity to dominate usage and that allowed him to improve greatly again and again, season after season. At Duke, Seth was a middle-of-the-road role player, never a star, on the team and his usage rate was much lower than what Steph received at Davidson. Steph is a lock for NBA HoF, while Seth is playing on his 9th NBA team in 9 seasons.
A great example of Big Fish In Little Pond. Which is one of the arguments people who agree with the article tend to apply.
Go to Harvard and risk being the 45th best freshman in your major. Go to Kenyon and possibly be the 2nd best freshman in your major and receive all the faculty attention/tutoring/mentorship/internshipOffers/etc you can handle.
I’m not saying T20s aren’t worth it. Just saying that maybe a good case can be made for some students to go to other great colleges where they might be allowed more “usuage”.
I don’t think it is a definite either/or situation. T20s are great places to receive an education and offer great opportunities for graduates. The problem is many people think T20s (T30, whatever limit) are the ONLY schools where top students can receive an excellent education full of excellent ancillary benefits, leading to excellent post-undergraduate opportunities.
I think the payoff between a prestige university and quality state (any in the top 25 of public universities) is probably a lot less than the article implies if you normalize for a a couple of different variables. The state schools have completely different missions from the prestige privates in terms of the types of students they take in, and comparing the average state school student with the average Ivy is meaningless.
For the purposes of this debate, let’s put the state school students in 3 buckets:
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A lot of the kids at state schools are not trying to become Masters of the Universe. They want to go into teaching, including academia, or law enforcement or some other field that will not be particularly lucrative but requires a college degree. Or they just want to get a job and live their lives and don’t want to spend every night and weekend during their 20’s and 30’s working to try to get into the corner office. For those kids, it makes absolutely no sense to go to a prestige private unless their parents can foot 100% of the bill out of their pocket change. These alumni are still showing up in the compensation averages.
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I will be the first to admit that there is a higher “Bluto” (Animal House reference) factor at the big state schools. The kind of kids who are splitting their time equally between bar hopping and house parties, and are less likely to be significant achievers, although they are a blast to hang out with. It is worth noting that the state schools run off many of their Blutos, while the Ivies keep almost all of them around because they don’t want to hurt their graduation rates.
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Then there are the achievers. The kids who got 1400+ SATs and straight A’s at public schools, but their parents couldn’t afford to cover the cost of a prestige private and they didn’t want to go $200k into debt when they know there is a good chance they are going on to grad school too. Depending on the university, this group constitutes as much as 25-30% of the student body, and these kids can hold their own with any kid from the T20. They are typically only taking classes with each other in the most competitive majors, and they often leave school with more practical skills than graduates from T20, because they don’t waste a year or more studying the “classics” as part of a core curriculum that is a throwback to the 50’s. These are kids graduating with math, CS, engineering and business degrees, and they are ready to produce on Day 1 of their first post-college job, and employers know it.
If you want to truly compare the ROI from the state schools to the Ivy, you have to normalize for these factors, and just compare the third group to the Ivy students. The real question is, is a kid with 1400+ SATs and a 3.7+ better off going to a T20 National University, or Top 20 public where he/she will get a great education at 30% (for in state public) to 70% (for OOS public) of the cost of the T20 with a higher likelihood of merit scholarships, and be able to afford a top law or med school, or MBA down the road if they want it?
Animal House, an all-time fave! I thought Faber College was private!? And John Blutarsky became a US Senator!
Great quotes by or to Bluto: “Seven years of college down the drain.” and, courtesy of Dean Wormer, this illuminating exchange:
Dean Vernon Wormer: Here are your grade point averages. Mr. Kroger: two C’s, two D’s, and an F. That’s a 1.2. Congratulations, Kroger. You’re at the top of the Delta pledge class. Mr. Dorfman?
Flounder: {drunk} Hello!
Dean Vernon Wormer: 0.2…***, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son. Mr. Hoover, president of Delta house? 1.6; four C’s and an F. A fine example you set! Daniel Simpson Day… HAS no grade point average. All courses incomplete. Mr. Blu…
sees Bluto with a pair of pencils in his nostrils
Dean Vernon Wormer: Mr. Blutarsky… zero… point… zero.
Bluto shrugs
But I digress! It’s Saturday, right?!
Doesn’t at least one Ivy League school have a higher fraternity participation than most or all big state schools?
Animal House was based on National Lampoon writer Chris Miller’s experience at Dartmouth. He graduated in 1963 having gone by the name Pinto in the Alpha Delta Phi fraternity.
Now drop and give me 20.
The Top 20 Universities with the Highest Average GPAs | Insights | RippleMatch
There appears to be a strong foundation for the saying that “getting in is the hardest part”.
These average GPA’s are a little silly, and certainly not indicative of a demanding learning environment. I don’t think the schools are helping their students by doing this.
Do you think these average GPAs are accurate? Seems like they are small samples and self-reported…what could go wrong with that?
“Getting in is the hardest part”
I would respectfully disagree with the implication that higher aggregate GPAs at the most elite schools suggests a lack of academic rigor. At institutions where over 50% of matriculated students were HS valedictorian or saludadictorians, test scores in top 2%, ECs that indicate a history of engagement, top tier recommendations, etc you would and should anticipate a higher average academic result. The result of this vetting process is students whose performance merits on average the higher GPA.
If you cook with the most selective, high quality and freshest ingredients you tend to get the most consistent and best meals.
And yet, when these students with top grades from elite schools enter certain fields which place a premium on high GPA and prestige, they still get separated into “buckets.” Regardless of the pool, you should still see differences in performance among those in the pool. Just because the pool is more competitive doesn’t mean all perform at the same level.
Not disagreeing when you are changing the setting from academic to professional and practical. Entirely different skill sets. I see it all the time in my profession.
I was however responding to the notion that somehow we should be surprised that students with documented track records of HS academic excellence yield a higher average gpa in college. It would actually be a surprise if they didn’t.
If the work were rigorous and graded on a curve, you’d see a difference. You don’t see such grade inflation at more rigorous colleges with similar caliber students. It actually is harder to get in than graduate from those super grade inflated institutions. Professors and admin won’t deny it.
Why? Didn’t these schools have students who came with the same attributes in HS but received lower college GPAs in years past? Aren’t the higher college GPAs now the result of either a) the availablity of easier courses; or b) more lenient grading policies; or c) both?
Given I am new here and the terms of use prohibit debate, I won’t respond directly to the false narrative of a multiple choice that doesn’t consider the increase in college selectivity.
I somehow suspect regardless, you won’t find me persuasive. I respect your opinion but it is contradicted by what I have experienced first hand.
I wasn’t looking for a debate. I merely asked some questions. If you don’t like how my question was phrased, let me ask it differently. Why do you think the few thousand students Harvard (or any other school you’d rather use as an example) selected in years past weren’t as good, as measured by GPAs, as the current students?
In 2005 Harvard had 19,000 applicants and an 11% acceptance rate. Last year Harvard had 39,000 applicants and a 5.4%acceptance rate. All the elites have experienced similar expansion to their applicant pools. That isn’t “a few thousand” as you suggest.
Suggesting that “getting in is the hardest part” however are diminishing the work of those who both get in and thrive.
1NJ I noted that your very first thread mentioned your sons interest in Columbia. Did he get in, attend, get a high gpa and if so was his acceptance the hardest part?
My sense is like most things in life opinions are based on first hand experiences.
Well I’m speaking from first hand experience. In fact, the dean’s speech to incoming students my year was basically, congrats, you’ve made it! Use your time here to pursue your interests to the fullest instead of focusing only on academics. And we sure did.