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<p>You’re right, of course, but considering how much tuition costs, free tuition plus a stipend is pretty nice pay for a part-time job (TA or RA). BTDT.</p>
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<p>That’s ideal of course (though I would argue for a shorter rather than longer payment period at the end if at all possible) but not something I think we can commit to on top of what we’re already planning on paying toward his education</p>
<p>mathmomvt,</p>
<p>Has your son looked into the availability of research work during the school year at the various schools? One of the reasons my son landed lucrative internships and permanent job is because he was involved in research from the start. His publishing record and speaking record look pretty good on his resume. In my opinion, those opportunities are a big part of a “quality program”.</p>
<p>BTW, if I were competent enough to do smiley faces and the like, I would have made it clearer that I was joking about the ‘slavery’ comment. Loved my graduate school days, poverty-stricken and busy as they were.</p>
<p>midmo, we’ll make a point to ask about that during our visits later this month. Thanks.</p>
<p>Since you are in the field, you should look into the courses offered and the research opportunities at each school and make sure you are comparing apples to apples. I would not be afraid of having my DS take on $24K to $30K of debt to attend “a superb program” vs. “a solid program”.</p>
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I was just reading an article recently about hiring in the computer industry, and it said that most colleges are a step (or two) behind in the programming languages they teach, at least for internet tech – for example, they are teaching Java when companies want programmers proficient with PHP – so often jobs are going to people who don’t have degrees (or at least not in computer science) - but have acquired the right set of skills. With the impending rise of HTML 5, I assume there will be demand for a whole new skillset.</p>
<p>Here’s a quote from the article:</p>
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<p>See: <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/technology/26recruit.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/technology/26recruit.html</a></p>
<p>So be very wary of falling into the mindset that prestige degree = enhanced opportunities for employment in computer tech. It just might not be so in today’s world.</p>
<p>Someone with a prestigious CS degree isn’t likely looking for a PHP programming job. Programming is also different from “computer science” which is more about developing new technologies. Also, I’ve yet to meet a good programmer who couldn’t pick up a new language in a week.</p>
<p>I do think that each of the schools he is considering offers its own benefits in terms of job opportunities. In particular, two of the “less prestigious” schools offer very strong co-op programs, which has definite benefits. So, we’re not thinking of the prestigious school as necessarily translating to better job opportunities. It’s more a question of what kind of experience the student will have in school. (He’s kind of skated through HS and the idea of being with a bunch of other really smart kids and being more challenged is appealing. He’ll be sitting in on classes at each school to help him decide to what extent that experience would be available at each of the schools. The honors colleges at the less-prestigious schools may or may not be able to offer that to him.) THEN the question is, how much is that worth to him, if he assumes that it WON’T pay back in higher-paying jobs (looking at the schools’ own salary statistics supports that).</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Couple of things:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If there is an option then ask your child to do Computer Engineering instead of Computer Science.
The difference is that CE will include EE and CS won’t.</p></li>
<li><p>If the child is at any of the known CE/CS power house and work hard you can expect child to be making any where from $5000 to $20000 during the summer internship.
So if you are talking about $30K over 4 years loan, the child might be able to make that during the summer internship after freshman, sophomore and Junior year itself.</p></li>
<li><p>All high paying jobs are going to be competitive at the global levels in future, so the rule of thumb is to ask child to follow path of passion. If you are good you’ll be employable against Engineers from India/China.</p></li>
</ol>
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<p>The high paying Computer Engineering jobs are not in developing PHP or Java application but most require C++/C programming.
Even then the language of programming is not the important aspect of CE/CS but algorithms are. CE/CS engineers who get paid very high for individual work are the one who are strong algorithm developer whether it’s developing the Stock Analysis algorithm, chip designing algorithm, internet search algorithm, or maps route algorithm.</p>
<p>My final conclusion: less debt (or no debt) is obviously better, and the future can never be predicted with certainty, but up to $30K in debt is not unreasonable for a strong student studying a field which seems likely to make him employable. </p>
<p>If S decides to go for one of the more expensive schools, we will certainly encourage him to do what he can to reduce his debt load by earning as much as possible via summer internships and/or part-time employment during the school year.</p>
<p>He does like the full-tuition-scholarship school quite a lot, so it’s definitely still in the running.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Agree with you mathmomvt.</p>
<p>30K is a car, a step up from Honda Accord. Think of it as buying one coming out of college, but you put it in the garage and drive the 10 year old klunker.</p>
<p>See if you can find out what fraction of students who were looking for jobs got it upon graduation and what the average salary was, and what the average summer internship rates and salaries were. I don’t have any stats other than at DS’s school - CMU, where many kids received more than $25/hour, even in the 30s, as interns and close to a hundred grand after graduation, and 6 figures after a couple of years. DW and I were very pleasantly surprised - didn’t ever dream about the internship salaries he and his classmates commanded, and hope this market doesn’t dry out by next year.</p>
<p>If you can get the figures for how they are placed, perhaps that’ll give you some direction on debt/reward equation.</p>
<p>“Think of it as buying one coming out of college, but you put it in the garage and drive the 10 year old klunker.”</p>
<p>Hey, my 13-year-old klunker ‘resembles’ that - it will outdrive, and outperform your new Honda any day of the week. (and it’s all paid for.)</p>
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<p>Hey!, I proudly drive my 12 years old ML to Lake Tahoe every so often during snow season and cruise pass all the new Honda/Toyota stuck on the road.</p>
<p>With a B.S. degree in STEM, you can probably get a job between $40K-$60K per year. However, to shield yourself from layoffs it would be desirable to have an M.Sc. in STEM. To go into debt for that would be more acceptable since it would have two effects. One, it would lower the probability of a lay-off or downsizing and two, initial and future pay would be higher as well. In this instance, over a period of 10 years, most college debt would be relatively small. I would set a limit of no more than $50K for B.Sc., $70K up to M.Sc. and $100K up to Ph.D. in STEM.</p>
<p>I don’t think 30K is an unreasonable amount of debt for this major. The decision really rests on the relative merits of the schools. If your S is much more likely to meet compatible, super-smart people at the more prestigious school, or if he will have access to much better faculty or research opportunities, that would be worth the money IMO: he might discover that he is capable of things he didn’t know he could do. If on the other hand the schools are fairly close, although not identical, in quality, then I would argue that you should save your money.</p>
<p>*I would set a limit of no more than $50K for B.Sc., $70K up to M.Sc. and $100K up to Ph.D. in STEM. *</p>
<p>In a STEM PhD program, you should receive full tuition and a monthly stipend that will easily cover a grad student lifestyle. If you’re very fortunate, you may receive a fellowship with no explicit responsibilities. Normally you would be required to RA/TA, and the RA part will likely be part of your PhD research anyway. You’ll probably have opportunities to consult in the summer for extra cash, but it won’t be necessary.</p>
<p>You will not need to pay a dime for that STEM PhD as long as you make satisfactory progress. If the funding were to stop, that would be a message that it’s time to move on.</p>
<p>Then there is this perspective on the worth of computer science majors: <a href=“In Silicon Valley, a Lack of Engineers - The New York Times”>In Silicon Valley, a Lack of Engineers - The New York Times;
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<p>^^^The article linked in the previous post is correct about the free meals (2 per day); also free public transportation passes. If they are providing free haircuts, it is probably because most computer geeks are like my son, who seems to think haircuts are a twice a year event, and they are trying to clean them up.</p>
<p>The salary range noted above is on target. These aren’t 40-hr. work weeks, though. We’ve asked son a couple of times how married people with families keep the crazy schedules, and he said there are very few of them. These firms are young.</p>
<p>The stuff about all of these new employees expecting to start their own companies ASAP also rings true. It is one of the reasons my son took a large merit scholarship–he wanted to finish college with $$ in the bank, and no debt. I don’t think he expected that every one of his contemporaries would have the same plan. Can an industry consist of all bosses and no employees?</p>
<p>If you are sure he’ll remain in comp sci, I think that’s a very doable debt. Don’t know about other engineering. My son is a top student at a top school. He earned $25/hour in high school, well over that in his internships and will be making much more than $60,000 in his first job. (He got the job offer from his last internship.) Even though he’s off to a high cost area, his needs are modest. I don’t expect him to care about living in more than a one-bedroom apartment unless he should ever get a significant other. Still no sign of that!</p>
<p>That said, there is something to be said for prudence. :)</p>
<p>PS Since I’ve said it elsewhere, my son will be working working for Google. It’s all true. Amazing salaries, amazing benefits. (We consider the fact that he might eat two healthy meals a day a HUGE plus!)</p>