@Rivet2000 There are definitely differences -
The landscaping is definitely nicer at Private Schools
Sorry - just being a wiseguy! There are definitely things better at many private, âprestigiousâ colleges. Some significant, some not. My son and I have certainly noticed the differences during our visits. As @PurpleTitan points out, the question becomes one of value: Are those differences truly worth the extra $20-40k/year? I could definitely get the Rolex if I borrowed from my 401(k) or took out a small personal loan. Is it worth it? If I had the funds ready, I wouldnât think twice (assuming my son would be happy to go there).
Not a Rolex fan myself and although Iâm currently wearing a plastic Timex (even my friend who was Rolex yachtsman of the year doesnât use his Rolex for the starting sequence in sailboat racing - not accurate enough), itâs important to note that resale value of the two is strikingly different.
My Timex would be worth approximately $0 on the resale market, where the Rolex resale is generally pretty good. In other words, the utility may be the same but their appeal to others as demonstrated by the amount others are willing to pay for them is different.
Where the watch analogy does apply is that it helps illustrate that the most appropriate choice will vary by person not just based on what they will be using the item for, but due to other factors ranging from personal preference to spending ability.
Thereâs no one watch that is best for everybody just like there is no single college or college type that is best for everybody. As long as you understand what it does - and doesnât do - the selection is very personal.
I knew there were academics out there I am sure the bias varies from school to school. It was a common thread to the three institutions my wife was at. I havenât seen that as much in my career as I have always been involved in biotech and most scientists there werenât concerned with undergrad or grad schools. Experience in the industry is what matters most.
Another obvious arbitrage situation is engineering at Florida State University and Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University, which is a joint engineering division ( https://www.eng.famu.fsu.edu/ ). But most of the engineering enrollment apparently comes from Florida State University, which has a higher price and apparently less scholarship money.
HES does employ plenty of non-Harvard faculty as well, though, but you could get a HES degree taking classes taught solely by Harvard faculty. Penn LPS is another example. Both HES and Penn LPS cost a fraction of their traditional undergrad counterparts (if you are full-pay).
Northwestern and WashU also have degree-granting adult education divisions, but in those cases, almost none of the regular faculty teach the adult education classes.
But you donât go into a lifetime of debt to buy that Rolex. You only buy it if you can afford it. If you canât, you buy a more affordable watch and wear it with pride.
âBut you donât go into a lifetime of debt to buy that Rolex. You only buy it if you can afford it. If you canât, you buy a more affordable watch and wear it with pride.â
Well I wouldnât but thatâs because Iâm debt-averse and am not particularly into fashion labels. You canât tell a thing about a personâs net worth or debt by looking at his/her watch.
My guess is that more than a few of the Rolex wearers has significant debt, just like youâll find people with student loan debt racked that debt up at institutions that are less prestigious than an Ivy League school. Weâve all heard the stories of the people with six figure loans incurred at for-profit colleges.
I have neighbors who buy their kids cars as a 17th birthday gift. I have friends who have redone their kitchens and have professional grade appliances and whatnot, even if only used to make microwave popcorn and reheat a pizza. I have colleagues from work who spend a week skiing in a fancy resort at Christmas, and a long weekend in a sunny and warm place in February, plus a deluxe vacation over the summer.
I have done none of those things. They canât afford to pay for college without taking on big loans; I paid full freight after planning since before my kids were born.
There are lots of things in the world I canât âaffordâ (or could afford but wouldnât pay for- Rolex watch included). That doesnât mean those things arenât âworth itâ. They just arenât worth it to me.
We sent our kids to the right college for them- which included a calculus as to whether being full pay at a private institution was âworth itâ given the kids aspirations, work ethic, intellect, ability to take advantage of their educations.
To us it was worth it. If it isnât worth paying full freight- then donât. But we didnât do it because we wanted the âRolexâ. And I would do it again.
@Rivet2000: Thatâs fair. Thatâs why English kids (for whom all English unis are the same cost) rarely turn down Oxbridge for some place else. And itâs rare that you hear people on CC urging kids who would get a lot of fin aid to turn down an elite private for a different school that would cost the same.
But as many colleges in the US practice differential pricing, cost/benefit trade-offs have to be weighed by many folks on CC.
@blossom I agree completely with your statement and reasoning:
âWe sent our kids to the right college for them- which included a calculus as to whether being full pay at a private institution was âworth itâ given the kids aspirations, work ethic, intellect, ability to take advantage of their educations.â
It also sounds as if you are unlikely to judge your children as being superior to those who went to a less prestigious school - by extension, I am going to assume your kids wouldnât either. My first thought on this thread was trying to see if others were dealing with their child wanting to go to a private prestigious school due to the outside influences and frankly, nastiness of even the more intellectual kids. To my relief, this seems like a common phenomenon. Itâs easy to argue a kid shouldnât care - this really is the first time in his life he has ever shown envy or concern so I canât be too judgmental. He was never one to worry about labels or having the newest, most trendy items. This is a little different - in his eyes, his academic reputation is at risk relative to the other top kids. Of course, as you pointed out, these families may be going into more debt than is really sustainable. I have learned a lot from people on this thread including a schoolâs value prop vs. cost. As many have pointed out to me, med schools are more concerned about what you did (and your MCAT score) then where you did it. For my son, the prestigious school may not have the value. The state school is still very good - top 100 nationally and the honors college offers great opportunities. If he is accepted at those other schools and they come up with a good aid package, then weâll have a difficult decision because the cost goes down and the value will go up. Your children are fortunate to have you.
A bigger question for another time - and often discussed: is what you are getting for $200+K really worth it? Iâm sure we can all agree that the cost is crazy. Iâm not sure it is possible to support these sizable increases indefinitely.
We had some interesting meetings with our kids guidance counselors (we had always been hands-off parents, so the guidance counselors assumed weâd âgo with the flowâ when it came to admissions and âthe listâ.) At one meeting I told the guidance counselor that unless our kid could come up with a meaty list of reasons for the safety type schools on his list- they were out. There was a neighboring state flagship U with a well regarded engineering program, and we didnât intend to pay for a private engineering program if a comparable public U was half the price. This kid applied to two schools- the public U (not a Michigan or Berkeley btwâŠ) and MIT. He went to MIT.
Another one of my kids never went to grad school. Has worked in a field where everyone assumes that at least a Masterâs is required. Company is about to go public. Delighted for my kidâs good fortune and hard work AND the âprestigeâ of the undergrad. But itâs really not about the prestige- although it has been a door opener for sure. The undergrad was just such a great and inspiring and tough and challenging place to learn. And employers sort of assume that the work ethic and skills are there-- and then reality DOES confirm that.
How do you measure âworth itâ? You donât get a piece of paper from college when you drop them off Freshman year promising that theyâre going to work at a successful start-up vs. teaching HS biology.
There are no guarantees in life. But for my values, and the way I raised my kids- yes, it was âworth itâ. I donât have pricey hobbies, I drive a cruddy Honda (which I love), and I donât need to âsignalâ to the world that Iâm successful. And-- most critically for our no loans plan- I took short maternity leaves after my kids were born, and never downshifted professionally. That was also a value. I loved my job and didnât want to spend 15 years at home only to wind up bitter and angry that I couldnât get back on track professionally (I know lots of women who have fallen into that trap). I donât know how people pay for college on one income, but I never had to do that math. We lived on one salary, and invested the second. And when one of us lost our job (we had two kids in college at the time) it meant some belt-tightening but nothing more traumatic than that.
Yes, weâve been lucky. No divorce, no chronic illness.
But you need to set your own priorities. My neighbors think Iâm a financial moron that with a seemingly secure job I canât seem to lease a nice car. Maybe I am a moron. But I donât care about cars, and I do care about college.
I donât share your fixation on med schools btw. I know dozens of kids who were intent on becoming physicians when they were in HS and only a handful end up doing that. I would NOT pick an undergrad on the basis of med school- either admissions or financials. Some of the kids end up doing something else health related, some end up in completely different fields, but picking a college as the entree to med school seems backwards to me.
@choguy1 The fun really begins at the end of March when your son has acceptances to a few prestigious and expensive private schools! I am sure this will most likely be the case since he is already accepted to the Honors college at your state flagship.
If financially you fall into the unenviable Donut hole, the struggle is real. The outcome is different depending on the family.
My DS was accepted to the Honors college at our state flagship(top 50) with tuition waiver. He was also accepted to a few higher-ranked OOS publics (top 30)with a price tag of around $50k. The decision is easy, it costs us next to nothing for the state school if he lives at home and commutes to school. As March came, things started to get more complicated. He got accepted to Duke with an EFC of 45K and Vandy with cost of 15K. It was a real struggle for our family to pick from the three choices, state school with a cost of zero, Vandy 15K, and Duke 45K. Sometimes I still doubt if we made the right choice.
There are so many variables in individual circumstances. In general I feel that having minimal debt is the only way to go. The area of study might also impact the debt level decision. I might be open to a little more debt if my student was interested in a high-demand major.
We are having the same discussion in our house. My S was admitted to his top 2 choices. Both are in the top 50. One will cost us $40,000 more per year.
Were the college cost issues discussed before application time, and were the costs of these colleges about what was expected (from net price calculators run before applications)?
My question on this topic is whether an Ivy League school is worth paying a premium for, and if so how much is it worth?
If my D17 gets into an Ivy (Princeton, Penn or Harvard), by my calculations Iâll have to pay about 25k/year. She already has scholarship offers to some state schools - two of them will require me to pay about 8k (Rowan and Stockton in NJ), and Rutgers will probably be about 15k.
So - is the name, the people you meet (both students and professors) and the education from an Ivy worth the extra 10-20k/year. Her intended academic path will take her to either Med School (doctor) or grad school for a PhD (biology research or something along those lines), so is it better to save the $ now since Iâve heard Med/Grad school matter a lot more where you go than undergrad.
Right now weâre still in that âbut itâs Princetonâ (or the others) mindset, thinking âhow do you NOT go there if you get inâ, but I dunno⊠tough choices.
So generally - is a biology degree from Princeton/Penn/Harvard worth 80k more than a biology degree from Stockton/Rowan/Rutgers/Drexel when Med or Grad school is going to be required anyway?
@ucbalumnus yes, we told S how much $ we were able to afford each year. He can go to x and come out debt free or go to y and take out loans. We had this discussion before he applied.
IMHO, both schools are in the top 50. I think he should choose no debt and that seems to be where he is leaning. He is going to visit both schools again before making his decision.
@blossom I feel like I am pushing against a nerve or something with you. My intent was never to put you on the defensive. If you felt like I did so, I apologize. Your kids went to private, well-regarded school, they were happy and so are you. Great! Thatâs what matters and as I said, it doesnât sound like your kids would be the ones to needle their peers about going to a state school - correct?
Despite what you may think, I am not âfixatedâ on med school. However, I do know when my son puts his mind to something, he will accomplish it. He is very confident that this is what he wants to do. Given my son, I would say there is at least a 75% chance he will be applying to med school.He (and the entire family) need to factor that into the equation. He needs to learn to plan for life 4-8 years from now, set goals, think about obstacles. We also need to factor in the needs of my daughter (who wants to be a vet). I am confident my son will get a good education if he selects any of the schools he applied to and he will have a very good science degree should he change his mind on becoming an MD. The people on this board have given me a lot to think about and consider.
I guess we are a little different from you - my wife chose to get out of the research lab and work part time only in order to be with our kids. Sure, we took a hit financially all of these years but it was worth it for us. She was never bitter - and went back to school for her 4th degree (which I tease her about all the time) to begin her second career as a middle school science teacher which she likes far better than teaching undergrads. Our kids tell her often how grateful they are that she made that choice.
I sincerely wish you and your children the best of luck in their future. Iâm sure they will be successful in whatever they do.
I am sure the bias varies from school to school. It was a common thread to the three institutions my wife was at. I havenât seen that as much in my career as I have always been involved in biotech and most scientists there werenât concerned with undergrad or grad schools. Experience in the industry is what matters most.