These are largely generalized statements that I don’t think can be supported across the board. One has to consider the quality of a university in a given area and major. Schools that are good in business are not necessarily good in engineering, making in-state choices not wise for many students. Program quality should be put before sweeping rankings like USNews that do not take in the full picture. Not to mention the fact that there is a large sect of families that make too much money to qualify for need-based financial aid, yet are nowhere near able to pay for private (or even public) universities outright.
They are generalized statements but the crisis is here and will only continue to get worse.
@labegg Why do we keep insisting on perpetuating this notion that OOS publics are dead in the water options. It’s crazy, do your homework, there are so many options, good affordable options, to obtain a solid education in the US, there is life beyond LACs and the top 25. Geesh.
I think there are many students and parents out there paying the outrageously high cost for private school and they are looking to justify their investment. To admit that their children could have obtained a similar quality education at a much cheaper public school rubs their financial conscience the wrong way. I think many may have buyer’s remorse at some point. If they are paying an extra $100k to $150k over four years to send their kids to private college they darn well want to believe that that money wasn’t wasted- that the same education goals and career opportunities couldn’t have been achieved by going to a public school. People need to believe they got something for the large amount of extra money they paid. So they make the argument that public schools may be in financial hot water, that they aren’t as good, etc. Some people need to convince themselves that they made the right decision by paying all that extra money.
@NPKR01 They’re hardly dead in the water, but the trend is disheartening. As far as privates go, most that are full pay are not the people that worry about an extra $150K. Unfortunately that is also why you are seeing most of those with an income of ($150-250K/yr salary) shut out of top privates leaving public universities there only option.
I know someone who had a successful start-up in a large city with an Ivy. They hired several students from that Ivy to work as interns. They found them lazy, entitled, and just wanting to sit around and preen and flaunt their Ivy-ness. The person did not hire any more from that Ivy and instead found bright, hard-working interns at a less well regarded university down the road.
@CU123 “As far as privates go, most that are full pay are not the people that worry about an extra $150K.” I don’t think this statement is accurate. Many families/students that are full pay are those that take out student loans, spend down their retirement savings, and take out a second mortgage on their home because they have convinced themselves that private school must be better than public. These are exactly the people that wish they didn’t have to spend that extra $150k but feel that if they don’t they would be short-changing their kids.
Their need to justify spending all this extra money, for some people, is what may motivate their argument that publics aren’t as good as privates. They’ve spent all that extra money and they really hope it was necessary so they argue that point.
While they are not small schools when they are being compared to small LACs around the country, they are small compare to most public schools. Public schools are made to be large so they can accommodate lots of students for higher education, while the Ivies are more focused on making the “right” graduating class with different talents, diversity, and bright and hardworking students. Most public schools have an undergraduate student body sizing from 15,000 to 30,000+ like UCLA, while the Ivies have sizes mostly around 6k, while the exception of Cornell, which is partly public due 3 of their 7 colleges are “state-supported statutory or contract colleges through the State University of New York (SUNY) system, including its agricultural and human ecology colleges as well as its industrial labor relations school.”
Yes, they indeed has the 8th largest endowment in the US. But consider their school size (around 29,000 students) and the other schools on the list (ex. Dartmouth with almost half of UMich but with less than a quarter of the number of students at UMich).[Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment]
My point though is that you can’t just look at the total endowment of the schools as some have a much larger student body. The fact that a school has a larger endowment doesn’t necessary mean they have more money to spent per student. Looking at endowment per student is more important than just looking at the pure endowment size.
I could have sworn someone within the last few days posted a link to an article stating that 50% of all privates would be out of business in 15 years.
My point? Not to compare Michigan to Dartmouth, or any school, like your example, but to point out that Michigan doesn’t appear to be a public university “in crisis” due to money issues, which is the title of this thread.
There are definitely a sizable of amount of lesser known rural LAC’s that are facing financial hardship, but they haven’t been relevant for a while.
@CU123 The problem that I have with your generalized statements is that you are projecting your own feelings on the subject and implying an indisputable future.
In #43 you said
You must be running in different circles than me. I live in the Chicago area. I can tell you that there are many families like my own, who choose our state flagship though we could afford expensive privates.
My daughter graduated last year from UIUC’s College of Business (Gies). All through commencement weekend parents shared their unabashed delight at the experience and cost of our children’s business degree(s). Many shared stories about how their child passed up more ‘prestigious’ schools, saving them 6 figures.
People who have money are NOT eager to part with it. If we can get the same result, without parting with an extra $100+k, many (not all) would. That’s where I agree with @NPKR01 who said “Their need to justify spending all this extra money, for some people, is what may motivate their argument that publics aren’t as good as privates.”
So what is UIUC Gies doing right?
– They built an aesthetically beautiful and functional building for business students, using a lot of corporate donations. https://business.illinois.edu/bif/
– They developed a strong (over 55% of business students participate) study abroad program. https://studyabroad.business.illinois.edu
– They have established corporate partnerships beneficial to the educational experience as well as post-graduation employment opportunities. These partnerships often combine the strength of Gies with our College of Engineering.
IBC: http://www.ibc.illinois.edu
OTCR: http://otcr.illinois.edu/#/about
T and M: https://techmgmt.illinois.edu
– They have connected with philanthropic alumni.
Gies: https://business.illinois.edu/news/defaultnews/2017/10/college-business-receives-150-million-naming-gift/
Siebel: https://engineering.illinois.edu/news/article/23592
http://www.fvgroup.com/news/UIUCMillion_Gift.pdf
Grainger: https://engineering.illinois.edu/news/article/2013-01-28-100-million-pledge-college-engineering-illinois
This multidisciplinary focus is exciting for the future. In fact today was the the groundbreaking for the new $25 Million Siebel Center for Design. https://designcenter.illinois.edu
And I didn’t even mention the new Carle Illinois School of Medicine. https://designcenter.illinois.edu
I apologize to those not interested in U of I, but it’s the school with which I’m familiar. I just used U of I as an example of a ‘public’ dealing with funding issues. Don’t be so quick to dismiss public institutions of higher learning. Do your research.
@sushiritto None of the public flagship universities are about to go under, but there are many that are facing tough financial decisions. These decisions will effect the quality of the education they provide in a negative way. I guess your waiting until they go under before its a crisis? Yes you did point out one of the few public university with a large endowment. Here is a list.
University of Texas System — $25.4 billion
The Texas A&M University System — $11.1 billion
University of Michigan — $9.7 billion
University of California — $7.4 billion
University of Virginia — $5.9 billion
The Ohio State University — $3.5 billion
University of Pittsburgh — $3.5 billion
The Pennsylvania State University — $3.4 billion
Notice UT is system wide.
Here is just the Ivy league.
Harvard University — $36.4 billion
Yale University — $23.9 billion
Princeton University — $21.0 billion
University of Pennsylvania — $9.6 billion
Columbia University — $9.2 billion
Cornell University — $6.2 billion
Dartmouth College — $4.5 billion
Brown University — $3.2 billion
Thrown in Stanford (ignoring NW, WSTL, UChic, etc.) and this is a blow out in comparison at schools that are 1/3 the size, much less in the case of UT.
How about some private LAC’s
Amherst $2.5B
Pomona $2.2B
Williams $2.2B
and dozens more with about 1/10 the size of some of the publics above
Again this isn’t the end all, but these things are not trending up for public universities especially as state legislatures cut funding.
@88jm19 ummmmmm, I did mention that I had TWO children go to our state flagship, didn’t I?..and I have stated before that in state schools are still a good deal, but how long will that last? I still think there is a crisis and it is getting worse.
@CU123 I didn’t know you live in Illinois. I must have missed it in this thread.
Regardless, I just showed you how one school…our state school…is trying to deal with the current funding environment while still preparing for the uncertain future.
Of course they are, I brought up this thread because this is an issue to consider when choosing schools. Flagship universities are not in any danger of failing, that’s ridiculous, but the slow erosion of the quality of education is not. Most of these universities will protect the two areas that are crown jewels to them, STEM and Business. The other majors will be pushed to the wayside and this is concerning for those interested in a good all around education.
@CU123 you cherry picked the top private universities in the country. Do you think that they’re private universities facing a crisis?
I live in CA, but using my example of an OOS public university that I cherry picked, what tough financial decisions is Michigan facing? Their audited financial statements state they’re financially strong and will remain strong. And UM is building new buildings and remodeling old ones.
“While they are not small schools when they are being compared to small LACs around the country, they are small compare to most public schools. Public schools are made to be large so they can accommodate lots of students for higher education, while the Ivies are more focused on making the “right” graduating class with different talents, diversity, and bright and hardworking students. Most public schools have an undergraduate student body sizing from 15,000 to 30,000+ like UCLA, while the Ivies have sizes mostly around 6k, while the exception of Cornell.”
Angelababy30, why are you omitting graduate students from the equation? Graduate students, and programs, are far more draining than undergraduate students and programs. If you include graduate students, Columbia has close to 30,000 students, Harvard has 25,000 students, Cornell and Penn each has 22,000 students. Those are large universities with huge graduate student populations and very costly graduate programs.
“My point though is that you can’t just look at the total endowment of the schools as some have a much larger student body. The fact that a school has a larger endowment doesn’t necessary mean they have more money to spent per student. Looking at endowment per student is more important than just looking at the pure endowment size.”
I am not sure I agree with you on that one. While some uses of the endowment benefit from a high per student endowment (financial aid comes to mind), others, depend more in the absolute size of the endowment (such as the construction and maintenance of world class facilities and labs). Liberal Arts Colleges with endowments in the hundreds of millions will find it difficult to maintain engineering programs like those found at universities like Berkeley, Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, Georgia Tech, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Michigan, Northwestern, Rice, Texas-Austin, UIUC etc…
It should also be noted that public universities are already seriously subsidized for in-state students ($10-$15k/year as opposed to $50k/year for private universities), and in-state students make up anywhere from 50%-80% of the student body. As such, public universities do not need nearly as much endowment per student as private universities.
Besides, are you factoring the $200-$350 million that those large public universities receive from their respective states annually in your equation too? Each $100 million of state funding is the equivalent of $2 billion of endowment.
I just looked at my daughter’s public university- they have just under a 4 billion dollar endowment and the school is less than half the size of Ohio and Penn State and about half the size of Michigan. They rank within the top schools nationally in NIH funding.
What did we get in return? Here is a small sampling:
- A better aid package than Cornell and probably Brown ( NPC and phone conference with FA for Brown). We receive good FA for 3 years...the other 2 schools ^ offered a small grant for 1 year and refused to take our circumstances into consideration beyond the first year. - A phone meeting with Princeton and Vanderbilt... revealed that "maybe" they would consider. My daughter's current school said "we absolutely consider" ... and they did.
- Research with renown professors
- Publishing opportunities
- Funded dinners with public officials
- Close knit ties with her professors, social outings and professional opportunities, etc
- an increase in confidence ( this is her biggest accomplishment) and the opportunity to make friends from all over the world
- Major leadership
Does her school have the biggest endowment out there? No… it does not… but she would choose it again in a heartbeat- it’s not folding any time soon.
I disagree with @CU123 The quality of science and engineering education at a number of state schools is steadily rising. U of Maryland comes to mind and also see A James Clark Foundation schools, many are public schools like GaTech. Also see Purdue and UIUC, I am totally impressed especially with the Indiana State system, its well funded and very hand holding for engineering. Ditto on GaTech, my son gets plenty of attention at GaTech, its like a private education but better as the research work is available to freshman through seniors, and its a well funded school, with constant building, adding curriculum, hiring the best faculty in many fields and recruiting top students.
As much as six years ago, I would not have thought so, but U of Colorado Boulder is steadily increasing it rank and reputation in computer science, with very top hires from Berkeley. The state of Colorado is not relevant so much, although we support our main Boulder campus well, its FEDERAL dollars that pour into Boulder, making it a new top public program, recently, although it has a ways to go to meet Texas, Georgia, California Maryland, Indiana and Illinois public standards. We recently hired the dean of engineering from GaTech.
In the sciences and engineering, its not state funding that drives a public program, its both huge donations, see A James Clark Foundation, and federal dollars. Even under Donald Trump, federal dollars are up and to the right! So much for Republicans wanting to balance budgets. Universities are thriving with federal dollars pouring in.
Its a total fallacy that say U of California is not up to snuff, its as great as it ever was at the top science and engineering campuses ,and especially UC San Diego is now near the top for math, chemistry and some engineering fields, as well as medical related studies. Students still believe “Berkeley is best” around here. And UCLA a close second. No one in Colorado or the west feels public is worse, in fact Californians are known to believe “public is best”. Colorado follows CA in this sentiment.
I see public programs as the new “go to” for the very top science and engineering education because of the GREATER resources, and that includes financial resources, to build new facilities, develop new curriculums and pay top faculty.
Also, in a public university, one must pull out the Engineering and look at that investment aside from humanities, which is languishing all over the USA. That part is sad, humanities is dying off in favor of STEM.
But public schools rock, and I would recommend many programs in engineering to most anyone I advise, including my own sons.
See A James Clark Foundation schools here:
http://www.clarkfoundationdc.org/approach/engineering/clark-scholars/
Note that U of Maryland received $219 MILLION dollar donation from the A James Clark Foundation-
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/education/bs-md-umd-donation-20171002-story.html
Public schools are quietly going about their business, with plenty of resources.
GaTech for instance incorporated the Atlanta Olympics 1996 swimming pool into a fabulous Recreation Center
one of the best in class for university swimming and recreation.
Public school library resources are much larger than many private college libraries as well.
U of Colorado has the best research library in the Rocky Mountain region and best of all, its open to the public,
letting taxpayers benefit.
Another big trend at GaTech and U of Maryland is special housing for students to create more connections on a big campus, and all this costs a lot of money but its happening. I don’t know that endowments are the most important thing to study when considering a college match.
Look at the large variety of housing programs at U of Maryland:
http://reslife.umd.edu/llp/
Innovative scholarships where students give back by working for state, local, federal or tribal agencies-
U of Maryland cybersecurity scholarships
The innovation at public schools is just phenomenal. The endowments will rise, as students do so well as did A James Clark and they GIVE BACK!
I am very excited about the state of US PUBLIC education, its so much better than the 1970s when I looked at Rutgers University in NJ and found not a lot to be excited about. . Today Rutgers is amazing for many fields and uses NYC as a resource for students, a playground and connects for jobs. One reason Rutgers got so good in the sciences, is Bell Labs in NJ dumped about 10,000 scientists out the door and they all found jobs at schools in the Northeast Corridor.