But looking on the bright side, Michigan moved from #30 in 2015 to #21 in 2018. <:-P
Cal Berkeley
2015 #27, 2018 #27
UCLA
2015 #37, 2018 #33
UCSD
2015 #59, 2018 #38
U of Washington
2015 #65, 2018 #61
“Crisis”?
“UC faculty leaders said the results confirm their fears that the university’s excellence would decline without greater state investment. The state share of costs per student dropped from $14,690 in 1996 to $7,160 in 2017, according to UC data. The university has made up some of the difference by hiking tuition and increasing the number of out-of-state students, who pay more, but both efforts have sparked opposition.”
@sushiritto You’re right there is no problem…I mean if a poster on CC says there isn’t we can just ignore the faculty.
Your 1st article is dated from last while Illinois was in the midst of a budget impasse since 2015! A budget has since passed and spending on higher ed in Illinois increased 1.9% correct? ( I am no expert on Illinois budget issues, nor do I have a desire to be, lol!)
These article seems to indicate there may be cause for concern in the long term but there is certainly not a “crisis”; and in at least one seems to indicate enrollment decline, the result of a birth dearth, is an important future consideration and that private schools are facing more of an enrollment crisis than publics.
We can cherry pick articles to our hearts content! I guess it depends on whether you are Chicken Little or PollyAnna. Me - I am an optimistic pessimist!
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/01/22/state-support-higher-ed-grows-16-percent-2018
I will concede there may be a cause for concern, but I am not about to jump on a crisis bandwagon. Nor am I of the opinion that it all comes down to endowments or shrinking budgets.
When does a “cause for concern” become a “crisis”…
Not yet, IMO…and considering the globalization and the wealth of educational opportunities available to students today…maybe never. I think the traditional model of 4 year education is evolving and I don’t think that is necessarily a bad thing.
@cu123 Thank you for providing me two examples to support your blanket statement about all public universities. While I do acknowledge the fact that such crises exist at ** some ** public universities, I strongly disagree with the blanket statement you made. The statement you made applies to some schools but not all of them.
Maybe the mods can modify the title of your thread to “cause for concern, in some cases”? If so, then I’d agree with you.
The CA UC and CSU system will NOT be increasing fees next year:
From the article:
Actual crises would be like these:
Mount Ida College (private)
Connecticut community colleges
Private colleges with D grades in Forbes’ financial grades is probably vulnerable to a crisis. Those with C grades may not be that safe either, though probably more has to go badly for them than for those with D grades.
So it is not like choosing any private college means that all is well in the college’s finances.
@ucbalumnus that is very true for private colleges further down the list, and also for public schools. The concern is more for the public schools toward the top of the list and there academic prowess slipping due to lack of funding.
I mean it really comes down to charging 1/3 to 1/2 the going rate for in state students and then simply not make it up via state funding.
For example, UCB offers a discount of 66% off OOS tuition, it doesn’t take the smartest economist to tell you that if the money doesn’t come from somewhere else then the product will suffer.
If there is a crisis I’d worry more about the private side than the public side. Privates have to justify families spending 250k+ for an education which isn’t getting any cheaper. The fact remains that in many cases one can find a similar education for much, much, cheaper. I’m at a state school whose program in my subject is competitive on a national level, and whose costs is (for me) 1/3 of a private. And this is at a school which is currently undergoing budget cuts. Or as the op seems to insinuate, a complete break down of the social fabric making up my school.
“UC faculty leaders said the results confirm their fears that the university’s excellence would decline without greater state investment. The state share of costs per student dropped from $14,690 in 1996 to $7,160 in 2017, according to UC data.”
The UC Regents said that while negotiating with the state for more money. Not exactly a surprising tactic. The UC tuition fees have gone up in the last 20 years to compensate for the loss of state funding. But they’ve gone up even more at private universities, partly because those colleges have adopted a high tuition, high aid model (whether need or merit based: https://www.wsj.com/articles/prizes-for-everyone-how-colleges-use-scholarships-to-lure-students-1523957400) and partly because of the luxurious facilities at some of those expensive private colleges.
For many of us the UC model delivers much better overall value. I’m very happy to trade off a few bigger lectures and triple dorm rooms to pay $13K tuition instead of $52K tuition pa. Wasn’t it just a week or two ago there was a CC thread with complaints about Californian kids being shut out of the UCs and forced to attend expensive OOS private colleges instead? Also why consider in state tuition a discount off the OOS rate? That’s nonsense when most kids are in state and get excellent value for money. And measured by criteria like % of Pell grants, the UCs do an amazing job of educating poor/first gen kids.
I don’t think the escalation in the discount rate can go on forever at many privates.
Again I limited my discussion to the top 200 of so schools in an earlier post.
Just some more info on this issue in a NYT article.
“Why You Can’t Catch Up”
“Tier 1 consists of major private research institutions like Yale, Johns Hopkins and New York University. Tier 2 schools are selective private liberal arts colleges like Middlebury and Vassar. Tier 3 are major public research universities, among them most of the University of California system. The remainder — less research intensive and selective, like Middle Tennessee State, Golden Gate University or the for-profit Grand Canyon University — fall into Tier 4.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/why-you-cant-catch-up.html
Re: #113
That is based on the paper at https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2473238 , but does the tiering make sense?
Does that paper’s “tier 1” schools Saint Louis and Syracuse have more prestige than its “tier 2” schools Amherst and Williams? Or does its “tier 2” schools Hampden-Sydney and Sweet Briar have more prestige than its “tier 3” schools Michigan and Virginia? Or do all of these schools have more prestige than Harvey Mudd, which is not listed in any of the tiers and is therefore in “tier 4”?
@ucbalumnus Good question for the author, do they make a good case for it? The empirical data is based upon the tiers as determined below, so it does show a difference in income BASED on the tiers the paper uses.
BTW, I don’t think you should assume anything about a college that is not specifically mentioned.
Here are how the tiers were determined, and it doesn’t include EVERY college, so the assumption that Harvey Mudd belongs in tier 4 is baseless. It could be in tier 1/2/3/4.
“Tier groupings are created in Hersch (2013) and based on a comparison of the 1994 Carnegie
Classification with Barron’s selectivity categories.”
Tier universities from the paper.
Tier 1
Private Research I
Boston University
Brown University
California Institute of
Technology
Carnegie Mellon
University
Case Western Reserve
University
Columbia University in the
City of New York
Cornell University
Duke University
Emory University
Georgetown University
Harvard University
Howard University
Johns Hopkins University
Massachusetts Institute of
Technology
New York University
Northwestern University
Princeton University
Rockefeller University
Stanford University
Tufts University
University of Chicago
University of Miami
University of Pennsylvania
University of Rochester
University of Southern
California
Vanderbilt University
Washington University
Yale University
Yeshiva University
Private Research II
Brandeis University
Brigham Young University
George Washington
University
Lehigh University
Northeastern University
Rensselaer Polytechnic
Institute
Rice University
Saint Louis University
Syracuse University Main
Campus
Tulane University
University of Notre Dame
Tier 2
Private Liberal Arts I
Agnes Scott College
Albion College
Albright College
Allegheny College
Alma College
Amherst College
Antioch University
Augustana College (IL)
Austin College
Bard College
Barnard College
Bates College
Beloit College
Bennington College
Berea College
Bethany College (WV)
Birmingham Southern
College
Bowdoin College
Bryn Mawr College
Bucknell University
Carleton College
Central College (IA)
Centre College
Chatham College
Christendom College
Claremont McKenna
College
Coe College
Colby College
Colgate University
College of Saint Benedict
College of Wooster
College of the Atlantic
College of the Holy Cross
Colorado College
Concordia College-
Moorhead
Connecticut College
Cornell College
Davidson College
DePauw University
Denison University
Dickinson College
Drew University
Earlham College
Eckerd College
Erskine College
Franklin & Marshall
College
Franklin College of
Indiana
Furman University
Georgetown College
Gettysburg College
Gordon College (MA)
Goshen College
Goucher College
Grinnell College
Guilford College
Gustavus Adolphus
College
Hamilton College
Hamline University
Hampden-Sydney College
Hampshire College
Hanover College
Hartwick College
Hastings College
Haverford College
Hendrix College
Hiram College
Hobart and William Smith
Colleges
Hollins College
Hope College
Houghton College
Huntingdon College
Illinois College
Illinois Wesleyan
University
Judson College (AL)
Juniata College
Kalamazoo College
Kenyon College
Knox College
Lafayette College
Lake Forest College
Lawrence University
Lewis and Clark College
Luther College
Macalester College
Manhattanville College
Marlboro College
Middlebury College
Mills College
Millsaps College
Monmouth College (IL)
Moravian College
Morehouse College
Mount Holyoke College
Muhlenberg College
Nebraska Wesleyan
University
Oberlin College
Occidental College
Oglethorpe University
Ohio Wesleyan University
Pitzer College
Pomona College
Presbyterian College
Providence College
Radcliffe College
Randolph-Macon College
Randolph-Macon
Woman’s College
Reed College
Rhodes College
Ripon College
Saint John’s University
(MN)
Saint Olaf College
Salem College
Sarah Lawrence College
Scripps College
Siena College
Simon’s Rock College of
Bard
Skidmore College
Smith College
Southwestern University
Spelman College
St. Andrews Presbyterian
College
St. John’s College (MD)
St. John’s College (NM)
St. Lawrence University
Swarthmore College
Sweet Briar College
Thomas Aquinas College
Transylvania University
Trinity College (CT)
Union College (NY)
University of Dallas
University of Judaism
University of Puget Sound
University of the South
Ursinus College
Vassar College
Virginia Wesleyan College
Wabash College
Wartburg College
Washington College
Washington and Jefferson
College
Washington and Lee
University
Wellesley College
Wells College
Wesleyan College
Wesleyan University
Western Maryland College
Westminster College (MO)
Westminster College (PA)
Westmont College
Wheaton College (IL)
Wheaton College (MA)
Whitman College
Whittier College
Willamette University
William Jewell College
Williams College
Wittenberg University
Wofford College
Tier 3
Public Research I
Arizona State University
Colorado State University
Florida State University
Georgia Institute of
Technology
Indiana University at
Bloomington
Iowa State University
Louisiana State University
and Agricultural and
Mechanical College
Michigan State University
New Mexico State
University Main Campus
North Carolina State
University
Ohio State University,
Main Campus, The
Oregon State University
Pennsylvania State
University Main Campus
Purdue University Main
Campus
Rutgers the State
University of New Jersey
New Brunswick Campus
State University of New
York at Buffalo
State University of New
York at Stony Brook
Temple University
Texas A & M University
University of Alabama at
Birmingham
University of Arizona
University of California-
Berkeley
University of California-
Davis
University of California-
Irvine
University of California-
Los Angeles
University of California-
San Diego
University of California-
San Francisco
University of California-
Santa Barbara
University of Cincinnati
Main Campus
University of Colorado at
Boulder
University of Connecticut
University of Florida
University of Georgia
University of Hawaii at
Manoa
University of Illinois at
Chicago
University of Illinois at
Urbana-Champaign
University of Iowa
University of Kansas Main
Campus
University of Kentucky
University of Maryland
College Park
University of
Massachusetts at Amherst
University of Michigan-
Ann Arbor
University of Minnesota-
Twin Cities
University of Missouri-
Columbia
University of Nebraska-
Lincoln
University of New Mexico
Main Campus
University of North
Carolina at Chapel Hill
University of Pittsburgh,
Pittsburgh Campus
University of Tennessee,
Knoxville
University of Texas at
Austin
University of Utah
University of Virginia
University of Washington
University of Wisconsin-
Madison
Utah State University
Virginia Commonwealth
University
Virginia Polytechnic
Institute and State
University
Wayne State University
West Virginia University
That seems like a lazy way of creating tiers. What’s the point of segmenting colleges and universities into tiers if what you really mean is “1) Private universities, 2) private LACs and 3) public universities”? It would have made more sense to divide them by test scores or admissions rates. Still lazy, but at least they wouldn’t be lumping Christendom College (96% acceptance rate) with places like Amherst and Pomona and ahead of public universities with acceptance rates in the teens.
“Tier 4” was supposed to be all schools other than those named in “Tier 1, 2, 3”. Since Harvey Mudd was not named in “Tier 1, 2, 3”, it was in “Tier 4”.
Ok then, Harvey Mudd is Tier 4. The point of the matter is that the empirical data suggests that these tiers have significantly different outcomes.