The Right Coast vs. the Left Coast

<p>I have some questions, but first a little background:</p>

<p>I skipped college to enlist in the military. Served 4.25 years, pretty high-speed stuff. Honorable discharge, and have since begun putting myself through school- put in 35 credit hours of junior college work to the tune of a 4.0, and I am on the cusp of transferring to a university at the ripe old age of 24. Career-wise, I am interested in being involved in running someone else’s business, and eventually in starting my own. I enjoy tons of creativity, great relationships and the ensuing teamwork, and having the responsibility of making important choices. </p>

<p>I am looking at schools and majors now. I’m thinking Stanford to finish undergrad. If admitted for this fall - and I am very close (long story, don’t ask) - then I will most likely attend. Sound good? At this point I am thinking a double major in bus/finance and engineering (I like interdisciplinary stuff). I like the Product Design engineering option @ Stanford (extremely unique, along with the d. school there), but dislike the lack of undergraduate B school. They do, however, have a nice econ department. Is this a legit substitute? </p>

<p>On the other hand, UVA is a low-cost, in-state option (I know I can eventually get in). They have McIntire, which is a big plus, but no design-related engineering programs. </p>

<p>So now the questions:</p>

<li><p>Are my major choices relevant? Is this the right direction of study in order to cultivate my interests into growing into an (eventually) lucrative pursuit?</p></li>
<li><p>Are these two schools and their programs a good fit? What other schools/programs should I consider? I like the idea of interdisciplinary stuff (like Brown’s COE, UPenn’s M&T… the only problem is that some of these are 4-year programs, and I’ve already got a year out of the way).</p></li>
<li><p>Where does an MBA come in to play? Or does it not at all? Conventional wisdom would dictate that getting one would be a great idea- is this train of thought incorrect? If so, will my time in the military allow me to begin pursuing one immediately following the completion of my undergrad work?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Bumpity-bump.</p>

<p>Come on, people, you're supposed to be problem-solvers, right?</p>

<p>I'll give you a few thoughts, but understand that I got my MBA a very long time ago, so I'm not current on today's trends.</p>

<ol>
<li> Product design is not a normal MBA track. If you have a talent in that area, go for it!</li>
<li> Pursue what you love to do. In the long-run you will do better if you love your work, or at least find it interesting.</li>
<li> You do not need an undergraduate business degree to get into an MBA program. Many take econ or other majors.</li>
<li> In fact, for some MBA programs, you don't need an undergraduate degree.
I used to work with someone who was a Vietnam-era green beret, and he got into Harvard Business School after military service without an undergraduate degree. This is probably unlikely today because things are so much more competitive.<br></li>
<li> UVa is well-regarded. If you go there, don't worry.</li>
<li> It's not for everyone, but you can also look into Columbia University School of General Studies. This is an undergraduate school within Columbia University for older students. I know you take courses with Columbia College. I don't know if courses in the School or Engineering are open to GS students. They offer a joint BA/MBA degree, but you have to apply to the MBA program a year early, and there is no guarantee that you will be admitted.</li>
<li> I just don't know about military experience counting as job experience. If you got promotions and various awards, it might. Some businesses like the dicipline that a military background gives you.</li>
</ol>

<p>I had the same question about integrating business and engineering when I was looking for a good school to attend...Here are some good programs:
1) UPenn's M&T - super hard to get inot
2) Brown's COE
3) Lehigh's IBE program
4) UMich's Global Leadership Program</p>

<p>Alternate option A: Major in engineering + MBA
Alternate option B: Major in Math + Engineering (Math is good for getting into business)
Alternate option C: Major in Math + Economics
Alternate option D: Major in Engineering + Economics
Alternate option E: Major in one Minor in the other</p>

<p>
[quote]
4. In fact, for some MBA programs, you don't need an undergraduate degree.
I used to work with someone who was a Vietnam-era green beret, and he got into Harvard Business School after military service without an undergraduate degree. This is probably unlikely today because things are so much more competitive.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He may have gotten into one of the exec-education programs at HBS (which are relatively easy to get into. But I doubt that he actually got into the MBA program at HBS.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, even if he did, he wouldn't be able to do it today. </p>

<p>*To be considered for admission, an applicant must have successfully completed the following:</p>

<p>A degree program at an accredited U.S. four-year undergraduate college/university or its equivalent*</p>

<p><a href="http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/admissionsrequirements.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/admissionsrequirements.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Actually, he did go to the regular program at HBS, not an exec ed program. In those days, an undergraduate degree was not as common as it is today. The green berets were a very select group of fighters, and he won multiple honors. I suppose this demonstrated his leadership.</p>

<p>However, I do retract my statement that "for some MBA programs, you don't need an undergraduate degree." This is probably not the case anymore except in rare instances.</p>

<p>Not that this helps the original post, but I think Harvard "was" one of the only top schools to allow people without undergraduate degrees to apply for their business school. </p>

<p>Actually, I was very surprised that they changed their admissions guidelines (from their website). Earlier in the year, I remember a newspaper wrote an article about a student who never went to college. Instead, he worked on the Bush campaign and gave many contributions. He may even have had low GMAT score (but I could be imagining this). Anyway, the admissions officer had a really hard time about letting him in but in the end, felt that working so closely with the President woud result in an experience few others in his class would have, and so he got in. </p>

<p>Thus, the posting on the website was very surprising to me. Perhaps they changed it for 2008 or the article talked about a student sometime in the last seven years?</p>

<p>Still though, I'm sure if you did something super remarkable, you'd be able to waive this requirement. </p>

<p>For Bait&Switch, if you do want to get an MBA in the future, and you feel you might be too old to the average class (recently businessweek discussed with many top MBA deans and they are trying a youth movement) you can always try a top European school. They tend to have older and more seasoned students. </p>

<p>I don't think you have to double major in business and engineering if you're going to get an MBA anyway but you should really do what you feel is right. I asked my CFO and few other MBAs for advice about taking accounting and finance classes before starting my MBA and they all said, "DON'T DO IT!" I thought it would make sense coming from a comp. sci. background. My CFO told me, your school wants to teach you their methods and they know what they are doing. You should go watch movies or read other books this summer because next year, you won't have time for anything.</p>

<p>wait, did you do active overseas stuff? wouldnt that mean ur education is free?</p>

<p>No, the regiment I served in is an elite, non-deployable unit that serves as the official escort to the president and the anti-terrorist unit responsible for the capital city.</p>

<p>FYI, going overseas does not entitle you to a free education. There are, however, a handful of states (like Illinois and Texas) that offer it's veterans free tuition at it's public colleges and universities. You may have been confused by the G.I. Bill, which is available to pretty much everyone in the military, and will help to defray the cost of a college education, but will usually not pay for it.</p>

<p>I would save the money and finish at UVA, you'll have great opportunities from there.</p>

<p>OP has pretty solid options. IMO, there doesn't seem to be too much of a difference between UVA and some of the other east coast schools listed (with the possible exception of UPENN). If he gets into Stanford, then he should definitely go.</p>

<p>I have a buddy at HBS who is in the same section as the (in)famous PA to President Bush who got in without an undergrad. For what it's worth, I hear he's extremely sharp (makes sense -- you gotta be if you want to be the PA to the President, I don't care what your political leanings are) and definitely contributes a lot to the class discussions. Rarely ever talks about politics and in those rare occasions that he does, it's more of an offhanded remark or a slip-up.</p>

<p>With regards to your military experience, it'll be decent fodder for perhaps an MBA admissions essay or two but what the top programs are looking for are post-bachelor's work experience. And as an aside, if by "elite, non-deployable unit that serves as the official escort to the president and the anti-terrorist unit responsible for the capital city" you're referring to 3d Infantry Regiment, it is basically an infantry regiment with additional (albeit pretty cool) ceremonial duties. Either way, b-schools tend to look favorably upon military service because of the leadership opportunities inherent in it.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>"Quit trying to church it up, Dirt."</p>

<p>Haha, yes- I was in the 3rd US INF. But I was part of 2 specialty platoons within that specialized regiment. One serves in capacity as the guards of the Tomb of the Unknowns (which, I dunno, happens to be the most sacred shrine in the U.S.) in Arlington Nat'l Cemetery... and the second as the President's official public military escort (responsible for him, the vice-pres, the secretaries of defense & state, each Chief of Staff, and their boss... the man who is REALLY the most powerful man in the world- the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff). </p>

<p>So no, I wasn't hanging out with the President 24/7 like were buddy-buddy, but we worked with him a lot- in addition to all of those other political and military superstars. </p>

<p>And we actually ARE the unit responsible for responding to any terrorist activities in the Metropolitan area. Plenty of us were pulling bodies out of a burning Pentagon.</p>

<p>FYI I missed getting into Stanford, apparently by just a few applicants. </p>

<p>Sucks.</p>

<p>Sorry to hear about not getting into Stanford. At least you appear to still have some other solid options.
As for guarding the Tomb of the Unknowns (thanks for the reference - I had NO idea what it was!), that's great and everything but it's still ceremonial -- prestigious in a similar manner to the US Marine Corps Silent Drill Platoon at 8th and I. Official public military escort for ____ = same thing. But elite? Not too sure about that.
And what do you mean by "responsible" for the President, VP, etc.? Doesn't that fall under the purview of the Secret Service? Unless you're referring to more perimeter defense or something -- similar to when normal grunts set up blocking positions around the objectives while the SOF-type guys actually do the DA hits.</p>

<p>I'm sure the CJCS appreciates your opinion about him as the most powerful man in the world... I'm actually friends with his son (a graduate of Chicago GSB and fellow former Marine officer) so I'll be sure to pass the word! ;)</p>

<p>Semper</p>

<p>
[quote]
Actually, he did go to the regular program at HBS, not an exec ed program. In those days, an undergraduate degree was not as common as it is today.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have a buddy at HBS who is in the same section as the (in)famous PA to President Bush who got in without an undergrad.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I still have severe doubts about this. But I'll tell you what. I'll give you guys the the benefit of the doubt. Why don't you give me their names (through email or PM if you're not comfortable doing so publicly), and I'll check the database to find out the real story? If I'm wrong, I'll come back here and say that I'm wrong. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Actually, I was very surprised that they changed their admissions guidelines (from their website). Earlier in the year, I remember a newspaper wrote an article about a student who never went to college. Instead, he worked on the Bush campaign and gave many contributions. He may even have had low GMAT score (but I could be imagining this). Anyway, the admissions officer had a really hard time about letting him in but in the end, felt that working so closely with the President woud result in an experience few others in his class would have, and so he got in.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Would you be able to post this link? </p>

<p>
[quote]
FYI I missed getting into Stanford, apparently by just a few applicants.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How do you know that you missed by just a few applicants? They told you that?</p>

<p>As reported by the Crimson:
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513563%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513563&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Blake Gottesman is the name. I'd give you the name of my buddy but it appears as if you won't need it.</p>

<p>Fair enough, you are correct.</p>

<p>"As for guarding the Tomb of the Unknowns (thanks for the reference - I had NO idea what it was!), that's great and everything but it's still ceremonial -- prestigious in a similar manner to the US Marine Corps Silent Drill Platoon at 8th and I. Official public military escort for ____ = same thing. But elite? Not too sure about that."</p>

<p>You clearly just not familiar with any of these units. We're handpicked and then handpicked some more. Having hung around SF guys, Recon guys, Ranger batt guys, Airborne infantry guys, and line guys with combat MOS's from all 5 of the services, I can honestly say that as a whole, there are few units who are as well-rounded: intelligent, athletic, disciplined, and capable. </p>

<p>Yes, a lot of the work is ceremonial. And everyone hates it. 9 out of 10 guys stationed there who come from forward-deployed combat units constantly comment about how constant and forceful the stress is at the Old Guard. The standard is very hard to maintain, and commanders at every level from O3's to O9's routinely remark about what a wire-tight regiment it is and how they've never "had the privilege of commanding such a fine (insert unit size here) of soldiers".</p>

<p>While I was in Ranger school, we had a handful of your battalion Recon guys, a bunch of PJ's, and some SEALs as our 'guests' (and if you don't consider these types "elite", then I dunno what to tell you). Well, even the majority of these guys either failed out or quit. I don't know what kind of hard-core snake eating stuff you experienced while in the Corps, but I lost 45 lbs. at that school, tore a rotator cuff, and enjoyed some mild frostbite (I still have almost no feeling in my feet... thank God my hands came full circle ). Not to mention the complimentary delirium that accompanies spending several months in a training environment that requires you to hump 100+ pound rucks over miles of (god-awful) terrain on a daily basis as your body literally begins to eats itself for energy (as I mentioned). And actually, the lack of sleep is the hardest part. The hour or maybe two (and often less) that you literally average per night over the course of SEVERAL MONTHS doesn't, umm, exactly, uhh, 'cut it'.</p>

<p>I would take a day at Ranger school over a day at the Tomb in a heartbeat. In an effort to define the Tomb, I would offer up the word 'obsession'- and that would just be be an understatement. It's more like... </p>

<p><em>POOF</em>! Oh, look! There goes your life! it just disappeared. </p>

<p>You rarely get what one might call a day off for 5, 6, 7, 8, maybe 9 months at a time. Not exaggerating. </p>

<p>And day 1 of the Indoc for my other platoon, involved running 17 miles, and then standing at attention for 8 hours in a 110 degree room filled with steamers. And all of this went down about 15 hours after we took a max-effort PT test just for the chance to do this ^. </p>

<p>"And what do you mean by "responsible" for the President, VP, etc.? Doesn't that fall under the purview of the Secret Service? Unless you're referring to more perimeter defense or something -- similar to when normal grunts set up blocking positions around the objectives while the SOF-type guys actually do the DA hits.</p>

<p>I'm sure the CJCS appreciates your opinion about him as the most powerful man in the world... I'm actually friends with his son (a graduate of Chicago GSB and fellow former Marine officer) so I'll be sure to pass the word!"</p>

<p>Yeah both Pace and Myers are good dudes. </p>

<p>Obviously the Secret Service pulls security for the Pres. When I say "responsible" for them I mean that we are responsible for providing an escort for them to any and all public (and many private) events in and around Washington, sometimes in other parts of the country, and occasionally around the world. G8 summits, State dinners, Presidential funerals, you name it- we're on top of that $hit. Start paying attention- you'll see us in half of the pictures these guys appear in. We are their personal playthings.</p>

<p>"How do you know that you missed by just a few applicants? They told you that?"</p>

<p>Yeah, basically. I knew they wouldn't divulge the information over the phone or in an email. So I showed up in person. And I was basically told that during a 'normal' year I would have been offered admission. </p>

<p>So I stayed in touch with their office throughout the process of the 'cuts' they made to the (already small) waitlist, and I was right there until the end.</p>

<p>Just no victory cigar.</p>

<p>Yikes. Sorry to have put you through those harrowing flashbacks of how difficult Ranger School was. I’m well aware of how rigorous the training is; I actually wish they opened up more seats to non-Army service members so that we could've all gotten pushed through. Sure, it’s great training. But the dirty little secret about Ranger School is that it also basically serves as a pipeline school for any infantry officer who wants to go career in the Army – which would explain the 50%+ graduation rate. Now that doesn’t take anything away from how challenging it is but that key fact certainly does add some color to the “I am a Ranger School grad” mystique. Of course, were I afforded the opportunity to attend Ranger School and able to pass, I’d still consider it a great accomplishment.
Compared to what SEALs have already been through with BUDs, sure, I could understand why they would throw in the towel. They’ve already been through a much more rigorous selection process – why deal with additional crap when they really don’t have anything further to prove? (Not that every SEAL or SF guy or Recon Marine, etc. that goes through Ranger School should quit because of "I've already been through this crap and don't feel like taking it anymore" mentality -- but that's a post for another day.)
And I can actually appreciate your sentiment that you’d rather be back in Ranger School than standing post at the Tomb of the Unknowns. I feel the same way about my deployments to Iraq – I too would rather spend a month in Iraq than stand duty at the Tomb of the Unknowns – but more because I’d personally feel I’m actually making a difference in the world. Not that I’m trying to take away any of the honor or prestige from what you do – it’s an extremely difficult, heavy job, and yet pretty damn cool -- but those attributes alone don't make on participating in it "elite"... just different.
Either way, I’d like to try to keep this above a ****ing match. I was simply calling you out or your definition of what constitutes “elite” – and you vehemently disagreed. No worries. We can agree to disagree.
Good luck with your studies.</p>

<p>I agree, and I respect that. Now don't mind me while I continue the polite 'exchange of information"- from my perspective, of course. (Maybe I should PM all of this to you, but whatever)</p>

<p>I will tell you that that "50%+" grad rate you cited is absolutely wrong. My class started with 440 people, and we graduated something like 119- and that's including 30 or 40 guys from other classes that recycled back into ours. You can do the math. The numbers were the same for classes ahead of and behind me. Also, don't forget that we're not talking about a 25%-30% success rate for the ENTIRE Army here (who are all volunteers themselves). It's 25%-30% of an already fairly select group of volunteers within volunteers (*Less than 2% of soldiers are tabbed. I think that that's somewhat 'elite'. There were many of us in my company who were tabbed (and each and every one of us jumped through the same aforementioned hoops to get that way. Well, except for the officers...)</p>

<p>We had an SF CPT, who had been running his own A team for a while, in our platoon. In terms of schools, he had been through the Q, airborne & air assault, Panamanian jungle warfare, Malaysian man tracker, SERE (operator tier), and now Ranger school. He had also been to a few others that I don't remember. He said that he had been starved more severely, smoked harder, slept less, and pushed harder psychologically at other schools, but that this was the most well-rounded form of ass kick he had ever received - especially because it is so long. It's blunt-force trauma... A course like BUDS will slowly acclimatize and build you up, then test you violently for a bit, and then cool down in intensity so you can "learn"- there are weekends off, and you actually get fed. None of this happens. We go non-stop for 61 days or more. No days off, no sleep, no food. Total suck. (Nor do we have the lovely moderate Southern California weather... as we happened to be the soldiers that God apparently hates- earning class slots/dates as 'winter Rangers'). P.S. 70% of BUDs trainees ring the bell. Sound like a familiar percentage? (if not, see above, paragraph 1) </p>

<p>I WILL agree with that officer pipelining comment- most of the guys who I thought didn't deserve their tab were officers. I can say with confidence that if you're not an "O", or you don't come from Ranger Batt, it becomes a hell of a lot harder to graduate. Not only is this group more overworked and under-prepared coming in, but we are graded much more harshly than the other 2 groups. Also, many of the non-officer or Batt Boy types have to do exactly what I did- beat out 12 other motivated, capable infantry soldiers who all had volunteered for the Ranger Indoctrination Program held in my regiment. I had to be the top student in a week-long love fest: daily PT tests, 17(+)-mile forced marches, 5 mile hill runs, several days of op-order training, a winter FTX, and land nav on a course widely considered to be one of the toughest in the Army (SF/SEALs travel to train on this one). And all in order to just get a shot at getting a slot to go to the school. </p>

<p>[In all fairness to the officers who graduate, I will make a few more comments. The officers are extremely motivated coming in, given the fact that it's a career defining school for many of the combat arms guys. This fact helps to explain why a higher percentage of them graduate. Besides, the large majority of them still don't graduate. They do try, however, to push officer's through the school for the experience... and I think this is a mistake. To award the mark of tested leadership to someone who has not earned it, especially when he will be in a leadership role in the future... I think that's the wrong call, period.]</p>

<p>There is a even more massive attrition rate for the Tomb (as well as the other platoon I was in). The Tomb badge is the only award in the military that can be revoked at any point during or after your duty in the military, for any actions that discredit the Tomb in any manner. They can reach out and touch you for the rest of your life. It's also the least awarded skill badge in the Army. There have been millions of soldiers that have served since WWII, and less than 600 Tomb badges have been awarded, with handfuls of them since revoked. That means that less than 0.0001% of veterans have served there- and that's using 7.5 million vets as a base number, which is a conservative number (60 years/average 4-year tour = 15 generations of soldiers x average of 500,000 active duty troops at any given time = 7.5 million). 0.0001%... That, my friend, is the definition of elite. </p>

<p>Obviously, the DoD deals the hands... So why would the Pentagon pluck its most physically fit, intelligent, ethical soldiers, destined for forward combat units, and stick them all in one small regiment? Maybe it's because this unit "actually makes a difference". The reality of the situation is that what I was tasked out to do ends conflicts before they even get started. In order to do our job, we have to become trophies- examples of world-class.</p>

<p>Now I'm not saying that we're better than every unit out there- only that we're pretty much on the level, and most people just don't know. When you're designed to be impressive, you're designed to be impressive. </p>

<p>And about "actually" making a "difference"? The large majority of the multitude of individuals that I know who have toured the Sandbox have not seen combat, and basically spent time hanging around and sucking up U.S. tax dollars, during what is basically the borderline-illegal occupation of a foreign country which happens to be engaged in an informal civil war. </p>

<p>I'm not bashing anyone in particular, just calling it like it is and trying to get a little love. The bottom line is that sacrifice in any form is sacrifice, and in its nature, is geared towards serving the greater good- even if it involves specific activities that don't receive a consensus as being directly, immediately, observably beneficial (kind of like our involvement in Iraq...). Usually the more sacrificial something is, the more elite it is also- because people by nature are lazy and self-preserving, and sacrifice involves putting someone else first, which is extremely hard... especially when there is no direct personal reward for that sacrifice. You may have ended up with titles, awards, eye-openers and war stories. We didn't, and the guys in my unit prayed to get 4187-ed out.</p>