<p>Would appreciate thoughts of anyone with experience as a grad of service academy, (specifically West Point or Annapolis), plus 5-yr (min) service commitment.<br>
1. How did this impact ability to get into B-school?
2. Conversely, How did this impact your civilian job search?
3. How is degree from USMA or USNA viewed?</p>
<p>Any regrets about going the service academy route?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Would appreciate thoughts of anyone with experience as a grad of service academy, (specifically West Point or Annapolis), plus 5-yr (min) service commitment.
1. How did this impact ability to get into B-school?
2. Conversely, How did this impact your civilian job search?
3. How is degree from USMA or USNA viewed?</p>
<p>Any regrets about going the service academy route?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is quite normal to see graduates of service academies at the top b-schools. However, you must still have solid grades, test scores, and leadership experience that surpasses those of your peers.</p>
<p>I'm not sure I understand.
Admission to West Point and/or Annapolis is highly competitive. Academic load exceeds typical civilian school. It seems to me that anyone who successfully made it through those gates would be highly competitive academically. Why would you think otherwise. Are there holes that you don't see filled?
Thanks for your help.</p>
<p>Admission into Princeton is highly competitive also, but if a Princeton graduate only had a 2.5 GPA (on a 4.0 scale), that person is probably going to have an extremely difficult time getting into a top business school. The same goes for applicants with subpar GMATs or (most importantly) subpar work experience.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Admission to West Point and/or Annapolis is highly competitive. Academic load exceeds typical civilian school. It seems to me that anyone who successfully made it through those gates would be highly competitive academically. Why would you think otherwise. Are there holes that you don't see filled?
[/quote]
Not as selective as its graduate would like to think. Sure, the top grads are as good as those at absolutely ANY top school in the world. But the average grads are more in line with good/great schools -- not the elite. The academic and extracurricular work loads at service academies may be demanding, but they sure didn't keep two boat school grads from graduating in the bottom two of my MOS class.
Graduating from an academy looks great -- but as mentioned before, you still have to outperform other military applicants on the leadership, grades, work experience, and test scores front.</p>
<p>Thanks for your contribution. You mention your MOS class. Do you mean "your" as in you were the instructor or "your" as in you were a student?</p>
<p>Separately, I agree that not all who are accepted to a service academy are academic superstars (but neither are all who are draped in Ivy). How strongly do grad schools and/or employers view the intangible qualities that the academies nurture more than their civilian counterparts do?
Thanks again for your perspective. Any others out there?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure I understand.
Admission to West Point and/or Annapolis is highly competitive. Academic load exceeds typical civilian school. It seems to me that anyone who successfully made it through those gates would be highly competitive academically. Why would you think otherwise. Are there holes that you don't see filled?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Uh, I think we're actually all missing a quite basic point - which is that the top MBA programs don't put a strong weighting on one's academic accomplishments, placing far more emphasis on your work experience. </p>
<p>I'll give you a case in point. I know a guy who got his PhD in engineering at MIT, and was a veritable superstar while doing it, publishing several papers that have now become highly cited in his field. However, he soured on the academic lifestyle and after finishing his PhD program decided to apply to top MBA programs, including MIT's own MBA program at the MIT Sloan School - and didn't get into any of them. The problem? No work experience. Nobody disputes that his academic credentials were unimpeachable. But the fact is, he had never proven that he could actually handle himself in a real working environment. Now, to be fair, there are a few rare souls who do manage to get into top MBA programs with no work experience. But relying on that is like relying on winning the lottery. </p>
<p>Hence, if you graduate from an academy, even if you graduate at the top of your class, but then have a mediocre military career - as some of the graduates surely do - you probably won't get into a top MBA program.</p>
<p>Ironic. I was just reading about Jon Corzine and how he served in the Marines before going to University of Chicago for his MBA.</p>
<p>I'd rather get a normal job than join the armed forces.</p>
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Ironic. I was just reading about Jon Corzine and how he served in the Marines before going to University of Chicago for his MBA.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>To be clear, Corzine went to the UChicago night school, while holding a full-time job as a bond analyst.</p>
<p><<i'd rather="" get="" a="" normal="" job="" than="" join="" the="" armed="" forces.="">></i'd></p>
<p>This attitude is a big part of the problem in which the cultural/intellectual elite have neither understanding of nor empathy toward the military. A grad school reflective of this attitude would probably not value military leadership experience. </p>
<p>Too bad there is no draft. You would learn lessons your "normal" job will never provide.</p>
<p>
[quote]
<<i'd rather="" get="" a="" normal="" job="" than="" join="" the="" armed="" forces.="">></i'd></p>
<p>This attitude is a big part of the problem in which the cultural/intellectual elite have neither understanding of nor empathy toward the military. A grad school reflective of this attitude would probably not value military leadership experience. </p>
<p>Too bad there is no draft. You would learn lessons your "normal" job will never provide.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If that poster wanted a "normal" job, then why is he even here? I'm sure that normal, in a certain sense means average. People who want to be average don't care enough to be on these forums.</p>
<p>For the record, I'm a 21 year old student at Rutgers Pharmacy and I'm also an Officer Candidate for the NJ Army National Guard. The military is a great experience and what I've noticed is that many leaders both in government and business do have a military background. What percentage of male Congressmen do not have a military background? I've also heard that an extremely high percentage of Fortune 500 company CEOs are ex-military as well. There is a strong bond between people who have served in the military that is hard to describe. It often makes you give others the benefit of the doubt and vice versa as well.</p>
<p>Beyond networking advantages it gives you, it builds character. How many opportunities will you ever be given in your life to perhaps lead a company of anywhere from 100 to 300 soldiers in combat at such a young age? If you can handle the responsibility and the thought that your mistake may cost someone else their life, then you'll go a long way towards becoming a leader in business as well. You'll certainly experience extreme hardship, but that will build your ability to withstand stress and difficulty later on in life which is a characteristic that is essential to being a great leader. A "normal" job would never give you that experience.</p>
<p>Personally, I chose to join the National Guard because it does offer that experience especially with the recent deployment cycles, but it also gives me the chance to focus on academics such as Pharmacy as well. While I understand it may not be as highly regarded as coming from West Point, it allows me to study pharmacy and if I make it through come out with a Doctorate degree and a baseline level of financial security.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This attitude is a big part of the problem in which the cultural/intellectual elite have neither understanding of nor empathy toward the military. A grad school reflective of this attitude would probably not value military leadership experience.
[/quote]
There is a difference between being elite and being an elitist, and very rarely do the two meet. It's something people use as a tool, but it's a misconception. The guy you were quoting was stating his own opinion, not one that is shared by graduate schools. Graduate schools care about academic work, because you must be proficient in a field of study and have some history of showing an interest for them to accept you. This is common sense. An MBA is a different matter, and many service members get into elite business programs. The reason people from most professions (including being a professional soldier) outside of what we focus on (finance, general business, law) don't end up in an MBA program is because they can't afford it or because, honestly, 90+% of the applicants are from the business world and statistically it would only make sense that they make up the majority of MBA programs.</p>
<p>You're taking one comment and applying it to the entirety of academia, and it's stupid. I'd expect more from someone who's in Annapolis or West Point. Then again, judging by your posts you haven't yet been accepted to either.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Too bad there is no draft. You would learn lessons your "normal" job will never provide.
[/quote]
That there is no draft is a godsend, keeping war away from his countrymen is what every soldier fights for, and as someone who comes from a line of service members this statement is simultaneously frightening and mind-bogglingly moronic. You know, Starship Troopers was an impractical work of fiction written by a man who fell into psychosis and believed in excessive militarism--something no soldier who has ever seen the realities of war would ever agree with. Thinking that it's a bad thing that there isn't a draft shows some amazing ignorance of the world around you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That there is no draft is a godsend, keeping war away from his countrymen is what every soldier fights for
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree. The other major advantage of not having a draft is that it preserves the fighting elan of the military. It's one thing to encourage an ethos of national service, including military service, within the citizenry. That's all to the good. But it's quite another thing to force people into the military who don't want to go. I believe most military experts would agree that military morale would be tremendously degraded by troops who never chose to be there.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I agree. The other major advantage of not having a draft is that it preserves the fighting elan of the military. It's one thing to encourage an ethos of national service, including military service, within the citizenry. That's all to the good. But it's quite another thing to force people into the military who don't want to go. I believe most military experts would agree that military morale would be tremendously degraded by troops who never chose to be there.
[/quote]
I agree on most parts. I think there are a few things people have not considered as possibilities. It is possible, although unlikely, for the government to create a 'de facto' draft where it raises the income substantially for all ranks and funds the increase through higher taxes for those not serving in the military. While it is not exactly saying "you must serve", it is saying "it becomes financially difficult not to serve." You would need a catalyst such as multiple terrorist attacks for something like this to happen. Based on the current situation this is unlikely, however that is not to say that when the public is frightened and the government needs to sell its case for a larger military that this would not happen.
On another note, it is quite a thing to force people into the military who do not want to go, but what branch of service would this statement cover? It seems that many people would oppose mandatory active duty service, but what about serving in the reserve or guard? If we were to go into a large-scale conflict, wouldn't it be better to have a higher percentage of the citizenry already trained instead of having to train them at the last moment due to a draft? I mean who are we kidding, if we have another major war that is undeniably worth fighting for, we ARE going to have a draft. And short of maiming yourself, there's a good chance of you being drafted.</p>
<p>you guys sound a tad brain-washed.... :D</p>
<p>
[quote]
Admission to West Point and/or Annapolis is highly competitive. Academic load exceeds typical civilian school. It seems to me that anyone who successfully made it through those gates would be highly competitive academically. Why would you think otherwise. Are there holes that you don't see filled?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is actually a popular misconception with a lot of people at the Service Academies. I can only speak first hand about Navy, but for four years we hear the endless cliches about the how the Academy is "not a great place to be at, but a great place to be from." Everyone is constantly telling us that we are "the best and the brightest," to the point that whenever someone does something incredibly stupid, the first comment is always, "best and the brightest" in an exceedingly sarcastic tone. </p>
<p>To be sure there are many great connections made at the Academy and the public has a very high perception of Academy grads, but to imply that its basically a free pass is not all that correct. Personally I just hope my 3.0 doesn't preclude me from the top B schools.</p>
<p>On the subject of the draft, I think many in the military may say that they "wish the draft" on someone who doesn't seem to have respect for the military or our country, but in reality, they should be aware of both the added costs of training personnel who don't plan on doing anything but the minimum time as well as the probable lack of motivation of those same conscripted service members. Most importantly, I doubt any of them would want to fight next to a man like that.</p>