The Seven (now five) Sisters -- question

Parents Forum
81

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If so, on the East Coast you are certain to get a wow for Amherst but probably not for Pomona. I would venture a guess the reverse is true for California.

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<p>to which Coureur replied:

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Not at all. Here in SoCal, Pomona is well-regarded among the academic crowd and is perhaps the most prestigeous of the Claremont schools to those who pay attention to such things, but if you say "Pomona College" to the average man-on-the-street he'll very likely think you are talking about Cal Poly Pomona.

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<p>Same here in the Northeast that I know. The so-called "wow" factor regarding prestigious LAC's is really in the eye of the beholder only. USNWR wonks, prep school families, and the academic world that receives these kids as PhD candidates do the "wow." For everyone else, not so much.</p>

<p>S went to Amherst College from a modest town and public school in upstate NY near the Mass border. Still, everyone believes he went to UMass at Amherst, except for the wonks as mentioned above. </p>

<p>Mini has written many times that his tip-top LAC alma mater (Williams) has been a big question mark/blank stare to others throughout his working life. </p>

<p>It's humbling for the students, however. A good thing. Re: prestige, it seems what matters a lot to the LAC students, aside from the actual education and friendships formed (remember all that?) is graduate school placement, on-campus recruitment senior year, or a network of older alum contacts in their field of interest as they seek first employment leads, post-college. That's where the pedal hits the metal. Everything else about "prestige" may just be bragging rights for parents on Saturday nights or the water cooler. And learn to duck. Nobody likes hearing it. </p>

<p>The Ivies and universities appear to be much better known, domestically and certainly internationally by the "average man-on-the-street." </p>

<p>(Sidestory: have I ever met an average man on a street?
If they're average, they're usually working, and if they're on a street, well,
I'm not supposed to talk with them...or play cards.. but I know what you mean :)</p>

82

<p>I actually tend to agree with Xiggi when it comes to quality issues. They are notoriously difficult to measure, which isn't to say that they aren't done. The Consortium on the Financing of Higher Education (COFHE) does a very extensive student survey on quality issues, with more than 50% of students at the 31 institutions (all Ivies, Seven Sisters, and the usual cast of private prestigue institutions) participating, every five years. The last survey was done early this year; the last with results was in 2003. But, except for Harvard which had theirs leaked (they finished 27th in academic quality and quality of campus life), the schools aren't publishing the results. </p>

<p>The good thing about a survey like COFHE (which, of course, is only indirectly comparative, as students only rate their own schools) is that it gets closer to capturing the experience of the AVERAGE student attending, whereas Ph.D. rankings, graduate and professional school admissions, etc., only capture the top students. (Remember, 50% of the students at each of these schools finish in the bottom half of their class. ;)) </p>

<p>For my d., it is likely she would have done just fine virtually anywhere, but chose her school over LACs #1-4 based mostly on her perception of "academic quality" IN THOSE AREAS WHICH SEEMED MOST IMPORTANT TO HER. No one else. A student not studying intensive Italian, early and Renaissance music and opera, not seeking humanities music research opportunities beginning in the first year (and who isn't turned off by a lot of drinking, and what she perceived to be an overemphasis on athletics) might certainly choose differently. But she wasn't/isn't an average student. Her education has served her extraordinarily well (thus far), but in the class of schools we are talking about, it would be surprising (and disappointing) if most of the schools were not serving most of their students well as well.</p>

83

<p>While it is true that Average Joe Sixpack knows more about the NCAA football and basketball schedules, it remains that people interested in college admissions --or going through the frenzy-- are keenly aware of the difficulty of "getting in." After all, isn't that what captivates the audience of this precise website? Intelligent discussions about education do not have be confined the lowest common denominator nor be akin to Jay Leno's Jaywalking show.</p>

<p>Accordingly, interested parties do pay attention to lists such as the one listing all competitive schools with below 20% admission rates. The list contains almost all Ivy League Schools, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, and LACs!</p>

<p>All Schools Below 20% Admit Rates - Preliminary Class of 2011<br>
Harvard University Ivy 8.97%
Princeton University Ivy 9.46%
Yale University Ivy 9.63%
Stanford University 10.28%
Columbia University Ivy 10.57%
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 12.48%
Brown University Ivy 14.05%
Dartmouth College Ivy 15.28%
University of Pennsylvania Ivy 16.06%
Claremont McKenna Lac 16.18%
Pomona Lac 16.32%
California Institute of Technology 16.83%
Swarthmore Lac 16.97%
Amherst Lac 17.50%
Williams Lac 18.46%
Bowdoin Lac 18.96% </p>

<p>All others schools are above 20%</p>

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<p>^^thanks, xiggi! Also thanks for not cutting off the list at 16.07% ;)
Ah the power of the edit... :)</p>

<p>Mini, COFHE sounds like study results I'd love to read, since my LAC ducklings were more about "the experience of the average student attending." Many thanks, just to even know such a study exists somewhere, even in a lockbox.</p>

85

<p>
[quote]
For my d., it is likely she would have done just fine virtually anywhere, but chose her school over LACs #1-4 based mostly on her perception of "academic quality" IN THOSE AREAS WHICH SEEMED MOST IMPORTANT TO HER. No one else.

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<p>Applause and hooras for Mini's post. </p>

<p>Inasmuch as expressions such as best fit are thrown around with abandon, there is amazing wisdom in that single line. It is so important to look WELL behind any school facade of selectivity and reputation and evaluate the departments that are KEY to one's choice. In Mini's case, his daughter knew extremely well what she wanted and Smith actually answered with tailored programs to her needs, and this might have contributed to her future success.</p>

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<p>Paying3tuitions, cutting off at 20% is obviously arbitrary. It just happens that this list was available with a cutoff at 20%. Adding the schools with 20.01% to 25% would not have made the point that LAC do well any stronger. </p>

<p>Please note that the numbers might change slightly as the numbers for the Class of 2011 become "more" official. Schools such as WUSTL that release numbers on a need to know basis might also have to be included.</p>

87

<p>^^interesting clarification, again thanks</p>

88

<p>Hm, I'm going to toss out another thread sub-topic here, because I've always wondered this about Seven Sisters schools. I realize the main topic of thread is Seven Sisters/prestige factor/comparing then and now. It's not about prestige but it's a "then and now" comparison. </p>

<p>A Smith sophomore gave my D, while in h.s. as a prospective visiting the campus, what I thought might be good guidance. D was trying to evaluate fine all-women's LAC's against fine coed LAC's, but in the 21st century! With formerly all-male LAC's now coed, this is sometimes a choice, but how to make it?</p>

<p>Her Smith friend said, "Think about your current friendship and study circles in high school. If you don't have or care much about boys in your h.s. friendship/study groups, you probably won't miss them on a college campus. If many current h.s. friends or study-buddies are male, then you might notice their absence on campus." </p>

<p>It seemed so wise at the time, especially because it separated out the academic and intellectual issue from the issue of weekend parties and so on. This comment helped her figure things out for herself. </p>

<p>Am wondering if others find that a good comment from that Smithie?</p>

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<p>One thing I have noticed is that the Seven Sisters have produced a surprising number of First Ladies:</p>

<p>Hillary Clinton - Wellesley
Barbara Bush - Smith
Nancy Reagan - Smith
Jackie Kennedy - Vassar</p>

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<p>Jackie Kennedy, however, attended but did not graduate from Vassar.</p>

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<p>And I think Barbara spent as much time at Smith as Jackie Kennedy did at Vassar. And for whomever keeps count, Jackie Kennedy left Vassar for studying abroad as part of the Smith College program. After that she attended GWU. :)</p>

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<p>Barbara Bush never graduated from Smith--she quit to marry George.</p>

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<p>...and produce lovely offspring. :rolleyes:</p>

94

<p>p3t,</p>

<p>That is an interesting way to look at the single sex schools. Another such comment made about the single sex, especially all female schools (though I am not so sure I agree with it) is that it was often said that class discussions maytend to be dominated by males, and that was one reason (a gazillion years ago) to consider an all women's school-- that it would allow/foster greater intellectual interchange amongst the women. I found that there were plenty of lively intellectual discussions with both the men and the women in class, and it id not appear that the men "dominated" any class discussion. However, I did find it interesting that even though the school was still 75% women when I attended, and it had been coed only briefly, there were, fairly quickly, a lot of class officer positions held by men.</p>

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<p>Did Jackie go on Smith's program abroad as part of the twelve college exchange?</p>

<p><strong>edit</strong> naah, I doubt the 12 college exchange program began in the 40's. Anyone know?</p>

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<p>I doubt it. Smith has some of the longest standing study abroad programs in western Europe - Florence (just celebrated its 75th anniversary), Paris, Geneva, and Hamburg (there was once one in Madrid). A very small number of students from other colleges attend as well, sometimes - the big barrier is one cannot even apply to the program without two years (plus one course) of college language - and all classes are conducted and papers written in the language of the country. So it's not very easy (unless a native speaker) to prepare to attend unless one is really committed to it. The Geneva students get to intern at international development agencies and banks, the Florence students, if they wish, can intern at schools in Pistoia*.</p>

<p>(*Students who apply should have some background in education and psychology, preferably some experience working with young children, and a serious commitment to the internship, which requires one full day on-site in Pistoia each week, keeping weekly journals, helping with or designing projects, giving an oral presentation at the end of the year in Pistoia and writing a serious term paper in Italian.)</p>

<p>I believe the then-10-college exchange began in 1968 (my roommate took a year at then all-female Wheaton.)</p>

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<p>A high school friend of Ds attended Mt Holyoke & studied abroad at St. Andrews.
Sounds like it is a beautiful area.
<a href="http://www.mtholyoke.edu/global/11837.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mtholyoke.edu/global/11837.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I don't know how well she spoke the language though ;)</p>

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<p>paying3tuitions said: Her Smith friend said, "Think about your current friendship and study circles in high school. If you don't have or care much about boys in your h.s. friendship/study groups, you probably won't miss them on a college campus. If many current h.s. friends or study-buddies are male, then you might notice their absence on campus."</p>

<p>My daughter pretty much hung out with girls throughout her K-12 years. Now in college, she hangs out mostly with guys. A co-ed college was an opportunity for her to reinvent herself and her friendships, which (to me) was a good thing.</p>

<p>I don't say this as a negative reflection on all-girls schools, just as a response to the point raised. Several of my daughter's HS friends are at Smith, and loving it. Certainly the dorms are considerably cleaner than at her school. (OK, I just stereotyped boys as being messier than girls. Sorry. But that was my observation when I visited Smith just recently.)</p>

99

<p>


That is probably a function of the times that those women attended school + class. Keep in mind that prior to the top Ivies going coed in the 1970's, it was kind of a given that proper young women of a certain social class would attend a Seven Sisters college. Aspiring to Wellesley, Smith or Vassar in 1950 would have been the equivalent of aspiring to HYP today. </p>

<p>Now there's a new generation coming up: Michelle Obama went to Princeton. ;)</p>

100

<p>re post #94, Just about the time I went to college, I recall the then-president of Radcliffe, Mattina Horner talking about the implications of a study of post-graduate achievement in business, academia, et al by the graduates of the Seven Sisters. This study found that grads of the schools NOT associated with a men's college were far more likely to have had significant achievement in those realms after graduation. Which was thought to say something about the effect on women of being educated in an atmosphere where they and their intellectual achievements were the #1 priority, or something to that effect.</p>