The Sobering Article

Parents Forum
1

<p>Here's an article I found maybe a year or two ago. I read it sometimes when I start thinking that maybe I should've been more ambitious and tried to go to a 'name' university instead of my stupid 'state uni'. </p>

<p>I know that college is about the work you put into it, and what you get out of it. I know that every student -- smart or dumb, ambitious or lazy, motivated or not -- all go through some of the same things I've gone through. The self-doubt, the second-guessing their major, second-guessing their intellect, worrying that they're spending too much money on books, wondering how in the hell they're going to take care of themselves after college, thinking they should've just took a business major and been done with it. All of this...while paying tens of thousands of dollars a year on tuition, room and board, and books.</p>

<p>I want everybody to read this article. It's short, but it's relevant given the climate of college admissions. </p>

<p>Here's college's dirty little secret: <a href="http://channels.netscape.com/pf/package.jsp?name=fte/nodiploma/nodiploma&floc=wn-ns%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://channels.netscape.com/pf/package.jsp?name=fte/nodiploma/nodiploma&floc=wn-ns&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

2

<p>I always consider freshman retention rate and graduation rate to be really important considerations when looking at colleges. If a school had a less than 80% frosh retention or less than 70% graduation rate, it was crossed off our list. I wanted DS to attend a school where the admitted students were committed to graduating, and the school was committed to doing as much as it could to help that happen.</p>

3

<p>Interesting article. Graduation rates always concerned me. My own son attends a school with a 60+% 4 year and 80% 6 year graduation rate. What I did not understand is that many of my son's friends actually entered college with so many college credits from dual enrollment in high school that many had sophomore and junior standing when entering the college as a freshman. That greatly distorts the 4, 5, and 6 year graduation rates, IMO. It should also be disclosed as to how many college credits are being accepted from classes taken in hs. My own son's high school offers only 2-3 dual enrollment courses. One added secret is that those with more college credits are allowed to register first, so those students who accumulated dual enrollment credits have first selection for courses. I will add that my son was able to change some of his classes 2 days before school, bc suddenly some classes that were closed opened up for him. He considers himself lucky. These are some issues that I have found behind graduation rates that I have not seen discussed on cc.</p>

4

<p>Does attrition have anything to do with how hard it is to get in to begin with? Obviously, the harder it is to get into somewhere, or get into some organization, the more dedicated someone is going to be to sticking with it. Actually, the same works with $$$. The less I charge for private music lessons, the less dedication I'll get. If I give it away free, I expect some students would actually take my time for granted.</p>

<p>Some schools are known for generosity with admissions, but are really no "easier" once you get there. I don't see anything wrong with that. Give people a chance. But don't lower standards.</p>

5

<p>At my son's U, many of the engineering majors (don't know about others) are 4.5 year programs. On top of that, many students really love being there. They don't mind sticking around an extra year. It's a wonderful place to be. So, if they're going to have to stick around for an extra semester, why not just stick around for another full year? Add to that the many opportunities for research (again, I'm going by what my kids are studying), and maybe doing the 5 year plan and getting all the extras is better than just getting the heck outta Dodge ASAP. That extra semester can be used for study abroad, work, a lighter classload, whatever. On top of all that, most kids go tuition-free, so it's easy on the pocketbook to pay for that extra year.</p>

6

<p>"Does attrition have anything to do with how hard it is to get in to begin with?"
Yes. The most selective colleges have the reputation of being willing to bend over backwards to help a student graduate, once they have matriculated there. They want their students to succeed, and Bill Gates aside, graduating from college is one measure of " success". It is in the colleges best interests to have a high graduation rate, for ratings purposes as well as more obvious intrinsic reasons.</p>

7

<p>The problem with sweeping statistics like in the article is that the statistic sums together results from too broad a range of colleges. The majority of colleges in the US are nonselective, admitting most students that apply, including a good number that may not be well prepared or well motivated. Is is a wonder that these schools drag the averages down? </p>

<p>For example, I never see schools such as Governer's State or U. Mass Boston mentioned on these boards. But these are the schools that are nonselective and have lots of drop outs. I don't think these schools are a failure though, as they offer opportunity to kids that might not have access to any college at all.</p>

8

<p>BTW not every school gives kids with AP credits an advantage in course registration. In my son's school (Carnegie Mellon) if you have a year's worth of credits you don't get bumped up until the final year IF you decide to graduate early. I don't really mind though my son has a boatload of credits there. And really the only thing he had trouble scheduling was the required freshman writing course. He didn't like the options that were left in his schedule this semester, so he'll try again next semester.</p>

9

<p>I didn't stay with my first college--Antioch--but I credit them with equipping me to be practical. The co-op jobs taught me that I wanted a focus before continuing to spend money on tuition. So I left Antioch, cast about and went to Cornell for nursing school. I returned to Antioch for a Masters in psychology and later got a Ph.D from ASU. Retention rates don't tell the whole story. I frankly think we could use more schools that put students out in the real world early. Should it count against that school if the student learns something and moves on? "Never let school get in the way of your education."</p>

10

<p>I think that the problem lies partially with our definition of "college." I think we would do far better to take a leaf out of the European book and include the option of rigorous trade-oriented education at an earlier age, rather than steering everyone towards "college," no matter how bogus.</p>

11

<p>newsmassdad, that's what I was trying to say but you said it a lot clearer than I did. </p>

<p>And I don't believe in relegating people to trade school because I am a firm proponent of life-learning. Not everyone is at the same place at age 17/18. Second (and third) chances are a good thing, as is "changing of the mind". I dropped out of grad school- it had nothing to do with the program. Yikes, if retention becomes such a priority, college will turn into jail! :eek:</p>

12

<p>At private colleges, retention rate is, generally speaking, and with some exceptions, a surrogate for family income.</p>

13

<p>I think a big problem with stats on college graduation rates is that they don't reflect the long term results --my son is one of those statistics who brings down the numbers at his first college, but he will graduate in 2008 from a different college -- 7 years after starting. (Only 4 years total spent in school -- the other 3 were very productive, working years which pretty much helped him clarify his interests and goals as well as setting the foundation for very high achievement & recognition at his 2nd college). I'm sure there are many similar stories to be found. </p>

<p>That being said, I do think it is a factor to take into account when looking at college costs, especially for someone who is entering with an undecided major and does not have a highly disciplined, goal oriented personality. That is... for a parent looking at college costs for a kid who seems kind of a drifter or a dreamer, it may be a few year down the line before the investment will pay off. Of course, the flip side of the coin is that the pricier college option might be just what is needed to motivate the student and keep him/her on track -- so you never know. But parents do need to keep in mind when they write that tuition check that sometimes the path to graduation is much longer than expected, even if the kid does finish eventually.</p>

14

<p>Two things: are the statistics misleading in that they don't count transfers? If a student drops out of college x and later goes to college y as a sophomore and ultimately graduating, how are they counted?</p>

<p>And I was disappointed in the article for mentioning two schools, posing a question, and not giving any answers or other data on the two schools.</p>

15

<p>Colleges are lucky they just have USN&WR to make them squirm.
Imagine if there were consumer regulations requiring them to track and publish info like the following-</p>

<p>"There is a 53% chance you will never graduate from our school, and a 45% chance you will not graduate from anywhere. Students who never graduate owe an average of $17,856 in education debt".</p>

16

<p>During my freshman orientation many moons ago, the Dean of Students said, "Look to your left, look to your right. One of you won't be here by the end of 5 years" (5 year program). We knew from the start that the school prided itself on weeding out those who hadn't chosen wisely. Today, college is a different animal. No one wants to spend $30-40k and end up flunking out! </p>

<p>I am not particularly worried about how long it takes a typical student to graduate, given all the nontraditional routes students seem to take today. </p>

<p>Retention rates can be handy in some cases. Freshman to sophomore retention can be an indicator of "customer satisfaction." I wouldn't rule out a school based on lower-than-expected retention, but I might look into it more carefully to try to find out why so many people leave after a short time on campus. I know a lot of kids will transfer, so it's not a huge red flag ... I would just want to see if the reasons for transferring would/would not be concerns for me.</p>

17

<p>forewarned is forearmed.
Although my D was first gen college- & she needed massive finaid as well, her first pick was a school that didn't have a high graduation rate.
After we had learned more about the college- we felt comfortable with the reasons that someone might transfer and while one of the reasons actually did rear up and bite her in the butt, she recovered and went on to graduate the next year.</p>

<p>For example - her college is quite small- an LAC, with fewer students than her sisters urban high school. This might be * too* small for students expecting the diversity of student body and perhaps even choice in curriculum that a larger school can more easily offer.
She would have liked to have taken courses in astrobio for example, and she even had to change her focus in major senior year because her advisor left and they hadn't yet rehired someone in that field.</p>

<p>Money- also rears its ugly head. As many know, private schools that use PROFILE can and do estimate your EFC differently than FAFSA.
While virtually all of the students in her freshman dorm graduated 4 years later- one of her friends for example was planning on med school, her parents decided public school for undergrad was much more doable than 4 years at an expensive college before even starting the long road to medicine.</p>

<p>Not just limited courses/majors, in an LAC of fewer than 1500 students but the rigor is not exagerated. No grades doesn't mean easy pass. ( they do have grades but don't routinely share them). Students may want a school where the popular topic of conversation isn't how many pages they have to read every day- or how many days they haven't gone back to their dorm to shower or sleep because they have been cramming in the library.
( AP courses are also rarely used for higher level courses/credits- Calc @ Reed is heavy on proofs for example- and even if you took AP Calc, students usually retake college Calculus to better prepare themselves for upper division science and math)</p>

<p>We felt that all these things she could handle.
Her high school graduating class was 18, so a class of 350 was big- her school was also "somewhat" ethnically homogeneous, so a college that was more diverse, even if slightly so was a big plus.
Same with classes, in high school, while she had 7 classes- they were the basics- math-english-history-science-language and two arts. Her college had opportunities for students to participate in the arts whether or not they were majoring in it so that was a plus as well.</p>

<p>She also did well with the rigor- it helped that academics was what most of the other students were concerned with, this helped her stay focused, it did get away from her a bit with OChem, but she eventually got back on track and graduated only a year later.</p>

<p>The reasons schools have a poor graduation rate vary- if a student is attending a school that can't hang onto professors or has weak professors, that will be more difficult to work around.
If a school is very rural- doesn't have a good relationship with area residents & there is little to do on campus- that also may have high turnover of students.
Dig deeper- when looking at schools, or at least develop your own criteria to evaluate them.
Graduation rate wasn't one of our criteria- but academics- financial aid- & * feel-fit* were. ( as well as a few other things)</p>

<p>I also expect that families are now looking at other things besides graduation rate as the acceptance rate is now less than half what it was when D applied 6 years ago.</p>

<p>One of the things- we will be looking at for younger D though- isn't necessarily graduation rate- although at larger schools I think that is more of an issue- but the rate of local/commuter students as I think that really can affect the way a campus feels- students may think they can handle any change thrown at them ( my D thinks it doesn't * matter*, but they may find after a month or two- things matter that never occurred to them.</p>

18

<p>I think this is something to think about just beyond the task of finishing school. As the parents here surely know, money plays a big part in it. It's a risk to put yourself, or allow your child to put themselves into thousands of dollars of debt...all on whim. The excitement of applying and getting in is transient. It's about trudging through those months and that work, too.</p>

19

<p>In regards to college graduation, I think it is important that kids be given clear expectations. We told our kids, "We will pay for 4 years of undergraduate education. We expect you to graduate on time within that period. If not, you'll have to pay for the rest yourself!". In spite of many changes of major, DD will graduate in May, within the 4 years. ;) and, knowing my son, he'll make it to graduation within the 4 years also.</p>

20

<p>"We will pay for 4 years of undergraduate education. We expect you to graduate on time within that period.
well as I mentioned I said that too.
Except my D flunked the final for organic chemistry and so had to retake the entire course-
If I hadn't said that- possibly she would have recognized earlier that she was getting overwhelmed-
but 20/20 hindsight.</p>