The STEM Crisis Is a Myth

Parents Forum
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<p>Who are all these kids that are being “railroaded” into STEM related careers ? I think most kids are still studying more liberal arts , business types of things , in terms of bachelor’s degrees awarded than STEM (but not sure on that, just seem to remember seeing that somewhere). My kids are the only kids of their good friends from high school who studied engineering in college. Most of their friends seem to be in business related, sales, banking type jobs. They have good friends from college that are engineers , of course. My kids were in no way coerced to study engineering. They picked their major on their own. I was actually pretty shocked when my youngest said he wanted to study engineering. Of course, their father and grandfather are/were engineers and their great grandfather was a physician so they do have some science /math aptitude. But you probably find in other families, that the kids whose parents were in more liberal arts fields, or music , or arts ,etc. may also gravitate to those types of majors or careers.</p>

<p>I honestly don’t think most kids who are “railroaded” into a major are going to do well. Some kids do surprise their parents with their major and do break from what the parents do. My nephew is studying computer science at an Ivy (totally his choice). His parents are both professors in a liberal arts type of field. They actually seemed a little surprised initially at his choice of major .</p>

<p>And of course, there are no guarantees with any major, STEM or not. Good social skills, good communication skills, and flexibility always help, in case an initial job or career does not work out.</p>

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<p>LOL, I agree, sevmom. Kids who end up graduating in STEM aren’t the norm, and most of them seem to have been in biology-oriented fields because they were pre-med. Relatively few kids actually go into the very demanding STEM areas such as engineering or physics. </p>

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<p>Our D decided she wanted to be an engineer back in 6th grade. How, I have no idea. Frankly, while she was good at math even back then, we really didn’t take her seriously. As a HS freshman with good grades she decided to sign up for the most rigorous courses she could in science and math for her sophomore year. We questioned her as did her advisor. She asked if she had aspirations to be valedictorian, she said “no, I just like the courses and want to be an engineer”. She is now a ChemE at Purdue and is starting a co-op in the fall. She has never wavered in the decision she made in 6th grade. Her Mom and I were business majors and while not science neanderthals were really not much help after about 7th grade. I no longer question her decisions where it comes to her studies or her future. She seems to be quite firm in her determination. </p>

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<p>I agree with @Sevmom. I just don’t see kids with no aptitude in a quant field being railroaded in to a quant field. I do believe that kids should get a realistic assessment of what it takes to succeed in various fields, however, as well as what skills are in demand in what fields. And also to learn about being pragmatic. Deciding to major in psychology simply because you’re interested in your own psychology when you can do just as well in econ or philosophy isn’t a good way to decide on a major, IMO. </p>

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<p>The first article is dead on when it refers to CS grads. We have been treading water at best for the past 12 to 13 years. Anyone wanting to go into CS should be warned; the emperor has no clothes.</p>

<p>The 2nd article is a hatchet job obviously sponsored by the same folks that want more H1-B visas. There is no shortage of talent in this country. These guys just want to import cheap labor. </p>

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<p>There are kids being pushed into STEM fields, with the hysteria out there about the future, and STEM jobs being sold by everyone from the government to guidance counselors to ‘conventional wisdom’ as being high paid fields, that these are the ‘jobs of tomorrow’ and so forth. Put it this way, a lot of kids from Asian backgrounds in the US are pushed into STEM fields by their parents (and folks, this isn’t just conventional wisdom, my S was in programs that were 80% Asian kids in high school, and the parents strongly pushed them into those fields, either that or investment banking, because ‘that is where the money is’). I do think it is stupid to push kids into something they aren’t passionate about, </p>

<p>There are good opportunities in the tech fields, but it is very different than it once was. People going into IT and Engineering didn’t have to be rocket stars to get jobs, there were decent paying jobs out there, a lot of them, but what has happened is thanks to outsourcing and H1B visa’s, especially with the WiPro’s and Infosys style of firms, they can get ‘average’ talent (or not even average) at cut rate prices, then expects the talented ones to make up for the deficiencies, a lot of the people being hired on H1B’s are not the creme of the crop or even average, but they are cheap, and they have filled a lot of the spots that once paid well. And yes, a lot of this is congress has deliberately stopped legislation that would make it so outsourcing firms couldn’t get the H1B’s, that it would only be available for companies who are the end users. What is even worse with H1B’s is that the firms use this to bring workers in, place them at companies, get them trained, then send them home, where they get work outsourced, and send someone else on that H1b to the US to pick up the skills, in turn to be able to be used in oursourcing jobs…in a sense the H1 is being used to pull even more jobs offshore, even though technically they shouldn’t be able to do that, once the H1 is finished its term, it is supposed to go back into the pool, not stay in perpetuity with the consulting firm. Given that, if someone isn’t passionate about it, seeing it as a ‘backstop’ given the artificial competition on wages thanks to the H1B program, would be wise to look elsewhere IMO. And as a hiring manager, I can tell you that even when hired directly by the end company, the pay scales are much less for an H1, we have been told outright to hire H1’s who we felt weren’t strong enough for what we needed, because they were generally about 20% cheaper than natives and card holders and in many cases, 40% cheaper. </p>

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<p>That actually is true. A lot of Asian teens are pushed into science fields; I know that my parents have been trying to get me to go into engineering or computer science for ages–they disagree with even research science. I’ve actually discovered that the reason I didn’t like engineering is because I perceived all engineering as being like electrical engineering (what truly interests me is chemical engineering), but I have friends whose parents are pushing them into science-related fields. One of my friends wants to go into journalism, but all her relatives tell her that she should be an engineer and the like.</p>

<p>I think part of the reason for that is that all of the Asian immigrants in the United States, especially those who already work in tech fields, tend to have been top of their class when they were in high school and college. They therefore expect their kids to do the same–except, when you’ve got a school where 90% of the kids have parents like that, it’s chaos. And since they don’t want their kids to go through the same struggles they did (most kids’ parents had almost nothing when they came here), they try and force their kids into the “high-paying” jobs.</p>

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<p>topaz,Funny you should mention journalism. My kids played sports with a couple of kids whose father was an engineering professor from Korea. The parents were actually pretty low key and one kid studied journalism and communications, the other is a chef. Other kids we know of with “Asian” backgrounds are doing different things as well- business, social media director, consulting, engineering-really all over the place. Amy Chua, tiger mom. is a lawyer and her daughter is a philosophy and Sanskrit major. Asian American kids may be more overrepresented in things like engineering relative to their size in the population, but many are doing lots of other things as well. topaz, do you have many friends whose parents have forced them to major in a STEM field despite a lack of interest or aptitude? How far does that go? There may be a small subset of parents who try to force or steer their kids in certain directions. I’m not sure that would be unique to Asian parents (who are certainly not all alike and come from many different countries and backgrounds). But I do understand what you are saying about many immigrants in general wanting to see their kids go in to high paying fields. Most parents, from any background, want the best for their children.</p>

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<p>@‌ sevmom-
Of course, when you talk about any group of people generalizations are tough. A lot of what I am talking about is common or has been among immigrants for a long time, in prior generations, people would be saying that about people of Jewish background. There also is the aspect of parental involvement in what kids do, from my experience with kids in music Asian parents in general were a lot more involved (maybe too much), and what they wanted often mattered more than what the kid did. Again, this is not limited to any one culture, but it happens to be that with STEM fields, that to many from Asia and South Asia that is seen as the path to a good job. I suspect Amy Chua’s daughter may be studying Sanskrit and Philosophy, anyone wanna bet she heads into law school or for an MBA? Yes, kids of Asian descent end up doing other things and not all Asian parents push their kids into things, but my experience is that that is quite common, that’s all. In music, it was a weird one, there were the parents who pushed their kids into music, drove them (not always to great results I might add), because of unfulfilled dreams on their part or because they somehow felt getting into music was prestigious (still trying to figure that one out…), then there were those where the kid loved music but they wouldn’t think of letting them study it, to them music was a great EC a la Amy Chua to help get the kid into an ivy league school…it is ironic, because one type of parent pushed their kid into something most would consider not a great way to make a living, the other away from it because it wasn’t a great way to make a living, which tells you it isn’t unique among any group, irrational behavior by parents tends to be endemic:)</p>

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Maybe the kids from your school have already had a much better chance to land on a reasonably good job in the end, even when they do not need to be in STEM? The caliber of the school district correlates well with the caliber of the families living in that school district. This could possibly influence the outcome of the kids in the end more than what STEM courses are offered at the high school level. (BTW, isn’t it a coincident that a majority of the kids at an elite college really do not care very much whether they are in a STEM major or not but they still do reasonably well eventually?)</p>

<p>On the other hand, if you are from a more working class background, you likely do need to pay attention to what your major is, at either an elite school or a non-elite school.</p>

<p>Two kids in DS’s suite in college who chose to enter a more “practical” career path happen to be from a “poorer” (but not so poor) family background.</p>

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<p>Not surprising that they may be more focused on immediate career prospects, given that they probably will have more student loan debt, and less family financial safety net to fall back on if unemployed at graduation. The effect may be more pronounced at non-elite schools, compared to elite schools where recruiting employers may be more willing to hire graduates with non-specific majors.</p>

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<p>You might not be passionate about your work, but you’re probably pretty passionate about being able to eat.</p>

<p>It’s my impression that things like Science and Engineering are usually considered too “lowbrow” for many of these kids and long term salaries too low, so you see more in Business, Economics, Statistics, Math, and the such. Those that are in CS or Engineering are looking for the easy ticket to the middle class, not to get rich generally. Going into science is just silly unless you really like science. </p>

<p>Job opportunities are indeed good in Engineering and CS, and it’s plenty possible to see 6 figure incomes starting, which is good by almost anybody’s standards. I don’t know if it’s ignorance or malice which is leading others to claim otherwise. </p>

<p>On H1-B, it isn’t the problem that people make it out to be but it’s still a bad system. Personally, I think the sensible thing to do would be to offer unlimited H1-B visas at a cost of 30K a year a piece. It could operate similar to an EB-5 except is paid over a lifetime rather than all at once, and money going direct to the government instead of through investment. When a cost like that is attached, we can ensure that we are indeed getting people who are worth having, without losing jobs that would have been just as well filled by Americans. I also think immigration should be much more limited outside of EB-5, to capitalize on one major product America can offer that other countries can’t. People want to be here. We don’t have much use for poor immigrants, why do we have them?</p>

<p>I also do not think it would be insane to modify the EB-5. Perhaps an additional 1 time payment direct to the federal government of 200 or 300K?</p>

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<p>We don’t have the Americans to fill them. Thats why there is immigration into these jobs. </p>

<p>Ive been in IT for 30 years. When I started there were very very few minorities. As the job market grew so did the diversity, first with an influx of women in the 80s & 90s then first generation immigrants over the past 2 decades. </p>

<p>Like any industry we are looking for the most qualified people we can get at the salary we offer. It isn’t true that immigrant workers cost less. Most come in through vended labor companies whose contracts are comparable or sometimes higher than the burden rate for full time hires. They can apply for regular employment once they no longer require sponsorship and compete along with anyone else who applies. </p>

<p>There is no conspiracy here, no one trying to push people into jobs, no unfair hiring. I dont see any of that. Just simple supply and demand. The push for STEM awareness is meant inform students of the opportunities available to them. If US students dont want jobs in this industry there are plenty of others who do.</p>

<p>If we were talking about starting a business making buggy whips vs computer chips no one would argue the point. Why should the labor market be all that different ? Everyone is free to follow their dream, but if you want a paycheck you might want to choose a something thats in demand. </p>

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<p>Here’s a few I know of from among HS classmates/friends:</p>

<p>A few medical doctors who had nervous breakdowns or had to take some time off due to burnout.</p>

<p>A pharmacist who despite excelling as a pharmacy major and working in the field at a hospital for nearly 20 years constantly complains about hating her work and regretting choosing her field “for practical reasons”. She also feels trapped because the education she received she feels is so narrow and she’s been in the field so long she’s not sure how to go about changing career paths without issues…especially in the post-2008 economy. Got to hear quite a bit about this as we dated at one point. </p>

<p>Engineers who found they loved math/science, but hated the engineering field or working in it and find themselves stuck or worse, feeling they were sold a false bill of goods after the dot-com crash of 2001-2. The latter sentiment is especially strong among older colleagues/alums who found that age discrimination against those who hit their 40s is a serious issue from their experiences/observations. </p>

<p>In some ways, their situations are more tragic as most had such strong math/science/technology aptitude that despite being forced into the field, they actually excelled academically which put off the reckoning that they’re on the wrong career path until they were already deeply entrenched or in some of their words, “trapped” in it. </p>

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<p>So, cobrat, You don’t have any HS classmates/friends/cousins that are burned out lawyers, teachers , or businessmen? Nobody in non STEM fields that is unhappy? Sometimes looking back at your career as you age is part of the territory. And some people just like to complain. I have an MSW and was a social worker for many years. I finally left the profession because I did not enjoy the work I was doing. My husband, an engineer, on the other hand, has had a very fulfilling career . </p>

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<p>@cobrat:</p>

<p>I think it’s prudent for those with a STEM background to eventually get a business education (ideally a liberal arts education at some point as well). The same goes for liberal arts majors, actually, but in reverse. </p>

<p>I’ve said before that those folks who are best suited for our current economy are those with a business understanding, soft skills, as well as quant/analytical skills.</p>

<p>People who have the technical skills for the job, an understanding of the business, and can communicate effectively as well are actually tough to find at my company (and I imagine many other sectors as well).</p>

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<p>Yes, I do have some friends who are burnt-out teachers…mostly college classmates. Major difference was going into teaching was their own idea, not one pushed by parents or others. If anything, some parents tried to deter them from teaching due to lower pay and perceived status/respect of profession by the public at large…especially from higher SES professionals. </p>

<p>Major difference compared with the folks I knew who were pushed into STEM careers by parents, relatives, teachers, and/or even peer pressure at our HS. </p>

<p>As for businessfolks, everyone I know in that field tended to be happy…especially considering that career path was their own idea…not pushed by parents/others. </p>

<p>I did know some folks in HS who were pushed into the legal profession, but most ended up not going to law school, quitting law school after a year, or using the pedigree of their T-30 law degrees(pre-2008) to move into career paths more suitable for them. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, due to the post-2008 economy and the severe meltdown of the legal industry which resulted in a glut of law school grads and lawyers flooding the shrinking lawyer market, changing one’s career like that no longer as viable as it was before. </p>

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<p>If your friends who were pushed into the legal profession could have not attended law school or quit after a year, presumably your friends in STEM related fields could have also taken control of their lives and not pursued things like medical school or STEM careers . I would imagine it is very hard to get through a major like engineering or get through medical school, if the student does not have some buy in. At some point, everybody has to figure out their own path and stop blaming parents, relatives, teachers or their peers for pushing them in a direction they are saying they really didn’t want to go. </p>

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<p>If one’s aptitude in STEM is strong enough, you’d be surprised at how folks like those classmates can get through engineering or med school. It’s a reason why it is more tragic in some ways as it would have been better for them to have flunked or done poorly enough earlier so they could have redirected themselves towards a more suitable career path earlier in their lives rather than having to consider doing so after spending 4-8 years being educated and working in it for 5-10+ years only to find the career wasn’t for them and they’re better off doing something else. </p>

<p>Worse, sometimes their education is viewed by employers in less technical careers as too narrow/technical for them to be hired in comparison to those with less technical educational backgrounds and/or are fresh out of college. </p>

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<p>It wasn’t they couldn’t attend law school. Instead, they opted not to apply and pursued other career opportunities. </p>

<p>Law school…even the T-14s don’t have Med school level expectations where one needs a minimum of a 3.5+ GPA just to even have a viable chance of being admitted. Especially if one’s LSAT scores are very high. </p>

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<p>Even if your " aptitude in STEM is strong enough," you still have to study and work hard. If somebody really does not want to study engineering or go to medical school, it would be easy enough to sabotage yourself or just not do the work. It’s too bad your friends didn’t figure out sooner what they wanted to do, but I would hardly call it tragic.</p>

<p>STEM type fields are not for everyone. But many people do enjoy some of the careers available in STEM. It is good to have the info get out there about what is available. Most people are still not going to college for STEM related careers.If people are not interested in STEM type careers, there are certainly plenty of other options. Here is a recent list about the 20 happiest jobs for recent grads. It’s interesting but of course there are probably other lists out there that would yield different results. <a href=“The 20 Happiest Jobs For New Grads | HuffPost College”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost;