<p>Saona63: Three. Last one graduated in 2012. Finished paying off the last of the loans last month.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, I may not have been clear: that’s a comparison of overall government spending (which necessarily approximates the total of funds raised from all revenue sources) compared to overall income of all Californians, not to the personal income tax. Seems like a better means of correcting for the variables inherent in the passage of time than applying an adjustment for population growth and a CPI calculation which is based on somewhat arbitrary cost items. Spending vs. combined personal income would seem to adjust for those variables in a more meaningful way. </p>
<p>Somehow I feel that we have gotten off the subject. I don’t remember when or how, but the loan crisis and middle class kids have been derailed by yoga, prisoners, and California’s budget.</p>
<p>I spend more than $100/ month on yoga, but somehow I’m guessing that prisoners aren’t taking it in beautifully lit studios with wood floors with a cool lavender-lemon cloth gently placed on the forehead after final shavasana nor do they have shampoo and elastics and bobby pins in the bathroom and the most darling retail area where you can buy the latest yoga fashions. @@ </p>
<p>I’m with you, Hunt. It’s ridiculous to “envy” someone in prison for this. I mean, I have to BUY my own ketchup, and prisoners get ketchup for free. I hardly would trade places with them for free ketchup OR free yoga. </p>
<p>"I don’t know about you, but I can’t afford to send my kids to Bard. How fortunate that if you are maximum security you don’t have to pay – because you can go for free! "</p>
<p>Yes - and disabled people are so fortunate that they get the closest parking spots!</p>
<p>The point of prison? Punishment? Deterrence? To protect society? Something else?</p>
<p>I am assuming those who believe spanking is an effective form of discipline, and encourages a development of social consciousness and responsibility, also think prison works successfully as deterrence. If a population only behaves because of fear of punishment, how many police and prisons are needed? </p>
<p>Even though it may be completely off topic (or maybe not) I’d like to read what Kluge thinks.</p>
<p>I went to the most expensive undergraduate department at the most expensive public school. It cost slightly over 9K a semester this year ($9082 I think). </p>
Perhaps some are unaware of how their comments look to others. Maybe a better word is “begrudge.” Some seem to begrudge everything anyone who is not just like them has. Those who, for any number of reasons, are not as successful, do not deserve any trappings of success or comfort, no matter how meager. Those labeled both poor and lazy are seemingly begrudged the very air they breathe. Privilege is indeed a heavy burden to bear and obviously breeds contempt. </p>
<p>ALH, I don’t have the answer. I’ve had clients who simply got caught up in events over which they had little control, others who were simply young and stupid - and some who were, in my opinion, genuinely dangerous and amoral. The problem is that the legal system didn’t do a very good job of treating the different types differently. </p>
<p>I think our prison sentences are generally too long, influenced by a desire for revenge and retribution more than a sensible effort to deter and reduce criminal conduct. Harsh punishment doesn’t actually work well as a deterrent to crime, but it seems to me that an appropriate “time out” is in order in response to unacceptable behavior, and there are some people who simply should be separated from society for the sake of us all. If we actually provided more guidance and rehabilitation, that would be better. Most inmates are guilty and some people aren’t interested in becoming rehabilitated, but endeavoring to return to society those who are ready to lead productive lives and maximizing the number of such folks should be a priority. The Bard education project seems to be an excellent example of that type of effort. Why it should attract scorn and derision escapes me.</p>
<p>To return to the theme of this thread, the reason for a discussion of California’s budget over the years is because to me it is a concrete example of why middle class students are getting hammered: because the community’s will to serve our youth has eroded. And by “will to serve” I mean by being willing to pay some of our hard earned cash to the government in taxes so as to subsidize public universities to provide education to all bright young people who want one without forcing them to go into debt.</p>
<p>The caustic, sarcastic comments about “government” and “taxation” posted in this thread demonstrate that attitude quite well. A sincere, if completely wrong insistence that state funding of higher education “has gone UP UP UP UP” in California - relying in good faith on numbers which have been “cooked” by an ideologically-biased libertarian “think tank” - and the baffled inability to accept that government taxes and spending are actually lower now in relation to our collective means than when we parents were college age show me why bright young people who are not wealthy are being hung out to dry. Stated plainly, an entire industry exists to cater to and encourage a sense of grievance and victimhood among the Boomers, to justify a refusal to accept the fact that we’re just plain more selfish than previous generations - a selfishness which manifests itself in an insistent belief that we’re paying more for the benefit of others when we’re not and therefore should be admired and pitied, not scorned for our meanness of spirit and lack of generosity. </p>
<p>Kluge: Thank you for your response and for all the time you’ve spent on these posts. Can we read you anyplace else besides this board?</p>
<p>I agree we are a really selfish generation. I absolutely don’t want to pay more taxes than necessary. However, for very selfish reasons, I am willing to pay taxes that support education and help reduce educational debt. I just planted pine trees that should help pay for my grandchildren’s education or my children’s retirement. Trees my grandparents and parents planted helped pay for my children’s college and will help me with retirement expenses. There is only a timber market when houses are being built. For a while after 2008, there was no local market. Then the local mill closed and even when the housing market recovered a bit, there was no way to sell our timber. Now the mill has reopened. Whew! Even if I don’t care about the mill employees, their financial well being is linked to mine. Even if I don’t care about young people I don’t know, if they graduate with so much debt they can’t afford to buy entry level housing, I am going to suffer financially. Again. So even if I object to paying these taxes for altruistic reasons, I need to do so out of self-interest. At least that is how it looks to me. I never studied economics. I also have a very vague sense that a better educated citizenry may benefit the entire middle class.</p>
<p>What sort of pine trees & why would you choose pine to build a house?
I dont even like it for furniture.
Of course my house was built using old growth fir, so I am maybe more picky than some.</p>
<p>I agree that just as we all benefit from roads that are maintained and from an adequate police force, we all benefit from an educated society.</p>
<p>Sorry emeraldkity, maybe this link will explain. My house is old growth wood, too, but was built 150 years ago. If my kids want to build wood houses, Granddaddy and Daddy saved them some great trees, lots of hardwood. Sorry to go off on a tangent, yet again.</p>
<p>Back to the subject of this thread. I can tell you for a fact that poor kids do not get everything paid for. A low-income family has no resources to provide a safety net for the student. I agree that middle income kids have it hard … I remember feeling so bad when I had to explain to very middle class families that the only aid available was $5500 in federal loans. It’s not easy for the vast majority of families. I have no answer … just a heavy sense that the future is not so rosy.</p>
<p>People please, who cares what happens behind prison walls??? Really, that’s not fun life! Yes they get room and board, yoga and so forth…Who Cares???
That’s not topic here</p>
<p>That was tongue in cheek. I will say I am more concerned about the plight of the middle class than whether Ralphie the rapist is taking sociology this semester. </p>