<p>I don't think the SAT alone, the grades alone tell the picture. The courses taken really expound on the grades, and an AP test result or SAT2 will even give more information. </p>
<p>I think that unless a student has a bad transcript, a high SAT will transcend it for many schools. The top schools require the full package.</p>
<p>This study has more unresolved variables than I'd like, but I suspect that the conclusion is valid. A few years back I reviewed the UC study which touted GPA over test scores and discovered - very much to my surprise - that the raw data showed the opposite, and that the variables they didn't correct for almost universally skewed the data towards GPA, while the variables they "corrected" for actually didn't merit the adjustments they made for the purposes of the study. Example: according to the UC study, higher scores on the SAT II Math test were inversely proportional to "success" in college (defined as first year college GPA for purposes of the UC study.) That one's not to hard to figure out; nor were most of the other ways they massaged the data to get the conclusion touted.</p>
<p>The SAT is NOT an intelligence test. The verbal SAT measures mostly two things: reading comprehension and vocabulary. You can improve both with study. If you do, there's a much greater chance you'll succeed in college. </p>
<p>The math SAT covers mostly learned skills. Yes, there's some aptitude involved, but you'll do better on it if you've taken more math--at least up and through precalc. Taking more math doesn't increase your IQ; it does increase your math SAT score.</p>
<p>Like some above, I question some aspects of the SUNY methodology, but suspect the conclusion is generally valid, with enough exceptions that colleges rightly consider other individual qualities. It seems to me, however, that determining the effect of SAT scores and other contributing independent variables--GPA, AP/SAT and/or ACT scores, type of high school, rigor of curriculum, support obtained at college, and anything else speculated to contribute--is a very tractable statistical problem. The modeling would be fairly straightforward; the real problem is obtaining data for a scientific sample representing each of the groups of interest.</p>
<p>I wonder how well rank predicts graduations rates and stuff.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The SAT is NOT an intelligence test. The verbal SAT measures mostly two things: reading comprehension and vocabulary. You can improve both with study. If you do, there's a much greater chance you'll succeed in college. </p>
<p>The math SAT covers mostly learned skills. Yes, there's some aptitude involved, but you'll do better on it if you've taken more math--at least up and through precalc. Taking more math doesn't increase your IQ; it does increase your math SAT score.
[/quote]
The SAT is not an intelligence test, it just correlates well with intelligence tests. It basically sorts the same things with all those un-PC realities of IQ tests.</p>
<p>"SAT measures intelligence"</p>
<p>Not really.</p>
<p>i tend to agree as well... i mean grades are completely inconsistent within schools... some schools give out As like cake, and anothers make it nearly impossible to get anything above a B. The testing in school also tends to vary greatly as some will only give multiple choice tests compared to essay tests.</p>
<p>I'm not saying to base it solely on the SAT/ACT nor I am saying that it measures intelligence, but it is a fairly accurate way to measure a student's abilities.</p>
<p>How do you standardize GPA...you can't. If you are at a very competitive school where everyone is smart, then what. Not everyone can get 4.0. In order to get into college you are ranked against those students that went to school less competitive...a little easier to say in the rankings.</p>
<p>ACT and SAT put you on even ground.</p>
<p>jckund, good point. I go to a competitive private school, and the amount of effort it takes to get a B at my school is like the amount of effort it takes to get an A at most public schools.</p>
<p>The emphasis so many colleges place on SAT/ACT scores cannot be solely or even mostly a response to USNWR rankings and the like. </p>
<p>Major colleges and universities have institutional research arms that track the characteristics of their matriculants and follow their subsequent careers. The schools are constantly analyzing the results of their admissions practices, even if they don't share them. </p>
<p>If SAT and ACT scores didn't correlate highly with academic and professional success, is it very likely that HYPS et al. would continue to ask for them?</p>
<p>What I'd like to know is how the correlation between minority groups and lower SAT scores affects the results of this study. However, I doubt that anyone giving props to the SAT would want to bring THAT up. >.></p>
<p>I disagree with the statement that the SAT measures intelligence and the GPA measures work ethic...or something along those lines. I have 2 daughters. One is a junior at a private HS, one a freshman at our public HS, which always ranks as one of the top publics in our area, which has great schools in general.</p>
<p>D2 got her first HS report card today. She is a smart girl, takes mostly all honors classes, and her weighted GPA was above a 4.0. She rarely seems to have any homework and has not had to exert herself in HS. D1 at the private school is smart, more of the high achiever, intellectual type, takes honors and 3 AP's...and she has only a couple of times in her HS career been able to get over a weighted 4.0. I am seeing a real discrepancy in how these 2 schools grade and how rigourous they are, even though the public has a good reputation. Seems like there is grade infaltion at the public, or grade deflation at the private.</p>
<p>D1 is rightfully a bit upset when she sees how little effort her younger sister puts in and still gets higher grades. It doesn't really correlate with intelligence and definitely not with work ethic. </p>
<p>D1 has taken the SAT once and scored 730CR 660M 730W. I have a feeling D2 will struggle quite a bit with the standardized tests in comparison. (Of course I don't want that to happen and wouldn't say that to her!) I just know my kids.</p>
<p>So, is D1 penalized for going to a "harder school?" I don't think admissions teams at colleges would rate the 2 schools differently. It seems kind of frustrating.</p>
<p>You are all leaving out that success in college depends on the TYPE of college... the SAT test may not be a helpful resource for colleges that look for qualities beyond good test taking skills and speed. Some colleges would rather have students who work hard at a constant rate, who motivate themselves not to get behind on their studies, and other qualities. I am not saying this because I did poorly on the SATs (I actually did quite well), but I do not think, in any ways, that a test will measure success for ALL schools. Actually, students who have done better on the SATs than me are actually at risk of failing high school itself (let alone college). So then what? A kid has a great SAT score, but no way to use it? Sad, but true...</p>
<p>Since SAT scores correlate so closely with income, it would be very hard to figure out which contributes the most to being able to graduate. Finances could have a lot to do with it.</p>
<p>Arachnotron makes up a definition of "smart"; the truth is that's no more a definition than many other ones. I think those who score high on the SAT are probably very smart in a certain way but those who don't may be very smart also. Being a timed test makes it less accurate because you are measuring speed, not intelligence.</p>
<p>Many gifted kids are bored and sometimes frustrated with high school. There's a lot of these types of kids with low grades and high intelligence. Kids who have a 99 in math and a 68 in social studies because they don't care about it. These kids generally ace standardized tests. Once they're in college they'll finally be challenged and have the opportunity to study things that interest them and be around people who share they're interests. These don't constitute a very large population of high school students but I think they make a great example of kids who have like a 78 HS average but ace the SATs and succeed in college.</p>
<p>For about 99% of people SATs correlate with intelligence better than grades do (I've found that many people who use the "bad test taker excuse" are just stupid, but I'm sure many do exist). Grades, as some one said, measures work ethic (and your abilities to stay organized and suck up to your teachers.) Having strong intellectual interests correlates higher with intelligence than with work ethic. People with strong intellectual interests can finally explore them in college whereas they may not have had the opportunity to in high school. I postulate that this is one reason why high SAT scores are better predictors of college success than grades.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What I'd like to know is how the correlation between minority groups and lower SAT scores affects the results of this study.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's an interesting and important question. Does it help anyone, minority or majority, to start attending a college without graduating? How?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Since SAT scores correlate so closely with income
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</p>
<p>Has anyone ever checked how closely high school grade correlate with income? Does anyone have a citation to such a study?</p>
<p>This new link </p>
<p>Promise</a> Lost: College-Qualified Students Who Don’t Enroll in College (IHEP) </p>
<p>is of relevance to this thread.</p>
<p>SAT correlates with income, but its not a strong correlation. I go to a school with nearly 90 percent of the student population who qualify for free lunch, and most of them score well above the national average.</p>