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You assume rich kids are dumb kids. But isn’t the argument for getting rid of standardized tests that high test scores correlate with high income? Aren’t poor kids being cut slack on their test scores because they are poor?</p>
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<p>Incorrect assumption.</p>
<p>The assumption was that, in the hypothetical example, the student from the poor family is the best available applicant from the school’s point of view. If the school were unaffordable to all but those from wealthy families, it would have to replace that student from the poor family with one otherwise less desirable to the school. This does not mean that the replacement student from a wealthy family is dumb, but just not quite as smart/talented/otherwise-desirable-to-the-school as the one the school could not enroll due to being unaffordable.</p>
<p>@ucb, there are no easy and totally “fair” solutions. But the bottom line is that the cost of college is utterly screwed up now. I would not be so upset if tuition costs had risen commensurately w the CPI rate of inflation.</p>
<p>I went to a private college in the 80’s. COA back then for a boarding student was ~$12k/yr. Based on the CPI inflation rate, in 2014 dollars that would be $28k, not $65k. Another big change since the 80’s is that it is now an entitlement for students to “go away” to college. Fullpay parents are now expected to also feed and house other people’s children.</p>
<p>When upper-middle class parents are chided for not having enough money saved, how on earth would any family have predicted today’s prices?</p>
<p>Here’ a question: Should private colleges be means-tested for receiving federal aid?</p>
<p>Colleges means-test their applicants for eligibility for FA. So should colleges, likewise, be means-tested for receiving federal aid? Poorer schools rely on every penny of tuition revenue to fund their annual operating costs. Wealthy schools w Godzilla-sized endowments can easily fund their operations and then some…</p>
<p>For perspective:
$5 billion dollar endowment x 4% annual return = $200 million annual earnings
$200 million annual earnings / 10,000 students = $20k available per student</p>
<p>Lest you argue that private colleges do a meritorious job of educating students so they “deserve” gov’t subsidies, many of these rich colleges are the ones who don’t believe in giving students non-need merit aid.</p>
<p>What say you?</p>
<p>This is completely, 100% an opinion but even as a full Pell student, I don’t think private schools should get government aid. Pell and the like should be reserved for public schools and they should be increased. If private schools want poor students, by all means- let them fund them. However, I think taxpayer dollars should go to public schools and not private ones. </p>
<p>@AnnieBeats: I’d believe that Vandy’s numbers in their Common Data Set would be more reliable. In any case, COA would still have to remain relatively high.</p>
<p>@GMTplus7 :</p>
<p>“For the life of me, I can’t see the point of fullpay families going deeply into debt for Dartmouth, if Duke will give them merit money.”</p>
<p>Well, Duke only gives out merit money to 60 entering undergrads each year (full-tuition, though, so for those 60, it’s a boatload).</p>
<p>Do you actually have a real-life example? Because I daresay that pretty much no one who’s going deeply in to debt for Dartmouth is also holding a full-tuition scholarship offer from Duke. Maybe there are some filthy rich families out there who just don’t care about the Duke full-tuition scholarship choosing Dartmouth, though I’d expect even that to be quite rare.</p>
<p>@Purple,
Well done, grasshopper. You see the point that there probably are few to none. The non-merit elites have chased out the high performing upper-middle class. But that’s their prerogative.</p>
<p>@GMTplus7:</p>
<p>The interesting thing is that there are cheaper options at many of these elites for non-traditional students. There’s Harvard Extension School and Northwestern Continuing Studies, though the degree from these places isn’t the same as from the flagship bachelors programs (and the instructors, often adjuncts, can be of iffy quality).</p>
<p>There’s also UPenn LPS, where, from what I understand, the degree <em>is</em> the same yet the tuition is cheaper. However, you have to be at least 21 to apply and they have only a limited number of (liberal arts & science) majors on offer.</p>
<p>In any case, picking up a free/near-free undergrad education from a decent school and then using the money saved to spend on only 2 years of education for a masters from one of these places (if you feel you need it) is probably the way to go.</p>
<p>Especially since, when its comes to degrees like an MBA, the name and network of the b-school you go to <em>is</em> worth paying up for.</p>
<p>BTW, in a decade, if things don’t change, list price COA will go to 100K/year but HYPS (but virtually no one else) will be offering good fin aid to families making 300K+.</p>
<p>However, things will likely change.</p>
<p>@apprenticeprof You are not considering withdrawing from the endowment. Yeah, the students are being charged for the same thing, but someone has to pick up the cost to help the student who can’t pay everything. So some of that money that has been raised through research and parents and alumni donations is going to make up the cost of the $60000.</p>
<p>@GMTplus7 I think that could potentially make everything worse. I think those colleges with huge endowments will find a way to increase tuition even more, and then blame it on less gov’t funding.</p>
<p>Deleted. I give up. </p>
<p>I don’t know if college finance works exactly like private school finance, but in private school, tuition does NOT cover the total cost of educating the student. Even at full pay rates, and certainly not at subsidized (financial aid) rates. </p>
<p>The endowment and annual giving is used to make up the gap between revenue and expense. </p>
<p>It behooves the institution to keep list prices high and collect as much revenue as possible from those who can afford it, and then give discounts as needed to fill the unused slots with kids who can pay quite a bit, but maybe not the full amount or who fill the needs of the institution (athletes, geniuses, etc).</p>
<p>Apart from the elite ones, most prep schools do not have significant endowments. At these schools, operating cost must be covered by tuition and ad hoc annual fund donations.</p>
<p>it does. Several of the elite schools have come out and said that the cost of educating the student is not fully covered even at full pay rates.</p>
<p>Which is why it makes perfect sense that they keep list prices high and collect as much revenue as possible from full pays, and then give discounts as they see fit. And why the idea of “just make it $35K for everyone” makes no sense, because why should they leave on the table the up-to-60K they get from the full pays?</p>
<p>I agree it makes rational financial sense for elite colleges to keep their present high tuition/ high aid model. But it’s obscene how colleges have let their costs spiral out of control. As I mentioned in an earlier post, full COA at an elite private college in the 80’s was ~$12k. That is equivalent to $28k in today’s dollars (CPI inflation), not $65k.</p>
<p>You don’t think that demand for more amenities, star professors & programs fueled increase in costs?
The most expensive schools are also among the most competitive, but are NOT the only schools worth attending.</p>
<p>There are just tons more services today vs in the old days. </p>
<p>My S is attending my alma mater. From the day he was accepted, there were get-togethers, e-mails / newsletters on a periodic basis, special programs set up to welcome incoming freshmen, lots of activities during freshman week, etc.</p>
<p>When H and I went? We got a letter in the mail that we had been accepted, another letter with our future roommate’s name and address, and then our parents got a tuition bill, over and done. The only correspondence with our parents was tuition or if we were named to an honor society. Our freshman week stuff consisted of one get-together in the student center, not excursions all over the greater metropolitan area.</p>
<p>There are tons more administrators and “stuff” compared to our day. But YK something? I think his experience is better than ours precisely because of it. There’s a lot of fostering community that wasn’t present back then, and a lot more support services.</p>
<p>Regardless of how high tuition rates are, I think the opacity of tuition rates borders on deceptive and in some ways could be regarded as unethical or even immoral.
I sometimes think there should be some kind of “truth in tuition & fees” act ( and then I go lie down until the thought passes because that would probably raise their costs too).
Nonetheless I would like to know how much of each tuition dollar goes to actually educating the student, hiw much goes to subsidizing another student, and how much goes to other things ( like chasing prestige via huge speaker fees to big name speakers)’</p>
<p>*
Nonetheless I would like to know how much of each tuition dollar goes to actually educating the student, hiw much goes to subsidizing another student, and how much goes to other things ( like chasing prestige via huge speaker fees to big…*</p>
<p>Things you can check.
Student loans.
Graduation rates
Prof salaries.
Class size & student: staff ratio
Amount of need based &merit aid.
Etc.
<a href=“http://collegecost.ed.gov”>http://collegecost.ed.gov</a>
If you have more questions that aren’t answered & you aren’t happy with that, don’t give them your money.
It works pretty well.</p>