I am not arguing with you, @catinthehat579, but I will point out a moderately famous statement made by a Harvard Dean of Admissions once upon a time. It was to the effect that Harvard, who has an entering class of right around 2,000 every year, could have that class disappear (like aliens beamed them up or something), take the next 2,000 from their wait list, and the quality of the class would be indistinguishable. The point being, of course, that there are far more people qualified to attend elite schools than there are spots available. So while I wouldnât disagree with the small psychological effect that your scenario might present, I donât think in most cases there is likely to be an issue of academic competence involved. Like with the Harvard case, they generally wonât make offers to students they donât think can succeed at their school, even from the wait list. In the end it is bad business for everyone, and they know it.
^This. And donât forget for need aware schools, which are the majority in BS world, heavy FA need would significantly drag you down. In other words, someone with the same qualifications without the FA need might be an in without hitting the WL in the first place.
âheavy FA need would significantly drag you down.â
What, exactly constitutes âHeavy FA need?â in the context of the wait list conversation? I keep reading this, but am wondering what the âdividingâ line is in the eyes of the FA/Admission office. Is it more than 50%?
Good question, @itcannotbetrue. Who knows really? What I am saying is that slight FA need may drag you down less significantly than heavy FA need. In âthe context of the wait list conversationâ, a WLâed applicant might be an admit if they didnât have the need or much less need for FA.
When my daughter was looking at schools, we attended 2 open houses where a financial aid presentation was included. Both schools were pretty clear in presenting it in the form of a pyramid: the very top representing the full-ride packages, the middle representing the âmoderate needâ of about 30 - 60 %, and the bottom representing the families that needed several thousand dollars to bridge their gap. They let us know that anyone looking for full or close to full aid would be in a very, very competitive pool. An AO at my daughterâs school told me last spring that they were able to admit and fund just 10% of the qualified full- FA apps they had received.
To just add slightly to what cameo43 said, @itcannotbetrue, I donât think there is a magic number but instead it depends on the financial health of the BS. However, I more than suspect the pyramid described represents a large number of institutions, even perhaps the vast majority. Just intuition based on long observation.
My 3/12/15 post on this thread :
Hereâs the drill:
If you receive a WL decision from your first choice school and an acceptance from another school- the steps are pretty simple:
-
Accept a place on the WL via email with Delivery and Read Receipts.
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Schedule a Revisit Day and put the WL school OUT OF YOUR MIND for now. Go to Revisit Day and have a great time.
Youâll have one month for the WL to shakeout and to make a decision about the other school . If you want to go the distance with the WL school ( WITHOUT jeopardizing the other school ) youâll have until A9. On A8 have your PARENT call the WL school and ask to speak to the DOA. Tell WL school that you have to act on an acceptance from another school before the deadline but youâd like to check WL status ( one last time ) before you do. If they tell you that theyâre NOT going to the WL or they donât expect much movement- thank them and have them remove your name from the WL.
Itâs time to MOVE ON unless you choose to stay on the WL. If WL school miraculously does come through ( after A10 ) youâll have to break your commitment with the other school and forfeit your deposit- which isnât a mere bag of shells, by the way. Personally, I could never take this route because Iâm way too frugal and like closure .
Iâm also big on keeping commitments- but thatâs just me. So- now weâre one or two days away from the deadlineâŠ
- Now that youâve given the WL time to play out ( and you can walkaway and never wonder because youâve seen it through to the end⊠) : Have your parent call the school ( youâll be attending ) and tell them the deposit check is on itâs way via FedEx.
The End.
10/5/15. Obviously, the above post was directed at families with options and had more to do with what to do within a certain timeframe. However⊠it should illustrate ( for people unfamiliar with BS ) the crazy 3/10- 4/10 window.
All BSs ask FP families to send in a nonrefundable ( 5-10K ) deposit and sign a contract on or before A10. I would argue that the bar is set slightly higher for FA families because in lieu of a significant financial commitment ⊠their word and signature on a contract is their ( symbolic ) depositâŠ
⊠that is, of course, if everyone still wants to be held to the same standard and treated equally and fairly.
Iâve listened to everything everyone had to say and I respectfully disagree. In fact, I dare anyone ( who needs/ receives significant FA 3/10/16 ) to commit to a BS on 4/10/16 and then tell the AO : Hey- Iâll sign this contract and you can start planning for my arrival next fall ( which requires the same preparation and expense as a 60K FP student- if not more ) but Iâm going to keep my options open and my name on other BS Waitlists until the school year begins.
Let me know how that conversation with the AO goesâŠ
Because if this is truly a common / acceptable/ above board BS WL practice and itâs all one big free for all with no rules and nothing to fear ( which is news to me ) : Providing full disclosure of your intent to stay on other BS WLs shouldnât be a problem or a big deal for the BS offering significant FA on 4/10/16- right? Iâm sure theyâll be very receptive and more than willing to hang in there with you while youâre at home hoping for something else ( not necessarily better ) to come through.
If something does come though, Iâm sure theyâll be first in line to pat you on the back and wish you well⊠while a FP family ( who stayed on WLs ) must forfeit a very large deposit in order to do the exact same thing.
Judging by the earlier posts here, it does seem that there is quite a bit of âDonât ask/Donât tellâ regarding WLs.
@PhotographerMom,
As Iâve indicated before, weâve had friends do just what you suggest here. At least one needed substantial FA. If it had been a problem the family would certainly been told so by one of the three schools involved (Accepted, Waitlisted and K-8.) If you donât want to believe me, thatâs your prerogative, but it is my experience. The specific family Iâm thinking of had a child accepted at a school, on a standard waiting list at one school and a financial aid waiting list at another. The DOA at the school that originally accepted her expressed disappointment that theyâd âlost herâ to another school but wished her well.
Let me flip this around to you. What evidence do you have, other than a vague sense that itâs bad manners, that itâs not acceptable for a student to remain on another schoolâs waiting list after signing a contract at another school? Have you seen anything in writing or been told so directly a schoolâs DOA?
@PhotographerMom, I totally agree! There definitely should be different rules for students who get financial aid. You state that âthe bar is set slightly higher for FA familiesââmy only question is where should the cut-off be? Should students getting 50% aid be given the luxury of doing whatâs best for themselves or their families, or should only full pay students have this right? It would also probably be helpful if you pointed out other standards that low-income students need to comply with which their wealthier classmates can ignore. I like your suggestion that FA students be required to inform schools that theyâre staying on a waitlist because FA families donât have money to lose if they come off the wait list late. Maybe we should have a separate threadâone for FA families, just to make sure they know their place. Itâs so unfair that full-pay families can lose a sizeable deposit while those lucky students on financial aid donât lose any money at all!
FA students still make a deposit. It would be very rare to have a student with an EFC of literally zero.
The question is how would the (FA) student/family know what counts as bad manners/expectation if nothing is written or no one tells them about it? Due to previously discussed reasons (discriminatory) I doubt AOs (even though they may not like it) will be able to say what they want to say.
Life is full of âinequitiesâ based on financial circumstances. This falls way down on the list, if it really is one at all. The wealthier family has the option of driving a Lexus, perhaps the other family doesnât. The wealthier family has the option of taking advantage of a fairly rare opening at the preferred boarding school, the other family might not due to the financial forfeiture of their deposit. Gee, they will just have settle for the first boarding school (doesnât all of America feel sorry for them?) while the wealthier family had a different option. This cannot shock anyone over 8 years old. It isnât any more unfair than being able to afford a nicer house or a better car. Wealth provides options. That is true everywhere in the world, even in the most repressive countries. Certainly it has been true here since before we were a country. I donât see why it is even a discussion.
Personally, I would be happy to tell any AO that my child was still hoping for school B and if they got in off the wait list, we would forfeit our deposit but we would certainly tell them immediately upon making the decision. It really isnât my obligation to tell them all that up front, since it most likely wonât happen and it really is none of their business until it happens, at which point it most certainly is my obligation to inform them promptly. But I wouldnât be afraid to tell them of the wait list situation in any way, shape or form and I strongly suspect they would just nod and say they understood, especially since they would figure A) the odds are small that it will happen; and B) they would just get a replacement for my kid off their wait list.
There is nothing remotely unethical about accepting a place off a wait list, no matter the date. As has been pointed out several times, if that were the case why do these schools have wait lists at all? How can School A be disapproving of my child choosing to accept a place off another schoolâs wait list when they are going to turn around and do the same thing? Clearly they know, more likely than not, that when they ask a student to accept a place off their wait list that child will have to forfeit a deposit and a place at another school. None of this makes any sense to frame as somehow being unethical. As far as being âdiscriminatoryâ, that is clearly the wrong word since the school/person offering the opening off the WL didnât base it on wealth. As far as being unfair, like I said welcome to the world. This has been true for millennia, and this is not a great example in any case. Like I said, the âpoorerâ kid is still going to boarding school. It is like crying foul because you could only afford a pretty nice new Buick instead of a really nice new Lexus.
If one receives almost full aid, one may put down no or very little of deposit, but is that why they shouldnât stay on a WL while someone who can afford to lose a collateral feel free to? While FA program is a great thing for those who cannot afford BS otherwise, an FA decision shouldnât be taken personally. Schools have their missions and try to find the best students they are willing to fund, which is why you may not be ther first choice to fund. Then the student tries to exhaust all possibilities of landing their best option and thatâs why they take an offer by A10 while still staying on a WL of another school. Student shouldnât take it personally the fact that they are a âbackupâ of another student the school thinks is a better fit. School wouldnât or shouldnât take it personally either when student decides to take an offer they feel better. After all, such an offer of FA will be the blessing of next in line on the WL. Who got hurt really?
Personally, I donât see the moral/ethical hazard. I just donât. It causes some more work for the AO, that now needs to go to their list, but otherwise there is no damage and only upside - student gets their wish, school B gets a student who is happy, and school A takes someone off the list making them happy.
Iâd wager each school experiences some attrition post A10 for various reasons, thus the argument for maintaining a wait list. (I do understand the argument that says the post A10 wait list should only be people not offered admission elsewhere, but taken to its logical conclusion, that would mean a w/l spot would primarily be offered to applicants who disregard our oft-stated advice of broadening their pool of acceptable schools, saying âitâs this school or nothingâ.)
Under no circumstance do I think the amount of FA offered should enter into the decision at all. The moral/ethical hazard involved (if any) is completely divorced from any aid offered - and being offered aid creates no new quandary in my opinion. The FA offered can always be offered to the next student on the WL, and a spot returned with FA attached is arguably far more âvaluableâ that a spot without.
In our case, we did not choose to remain on any waiting lists after a10, and in fact told all waitlists and ânon-finalistsâ that we would be going elsewhere very shortly after m10 to help make their lives easier, and return any aid offered ASAP.
On a10, we were extremely happy with our decision, and appreciated the âloveâ shown us. We didnât have any schools that we loved so much more we would consider waiting on their WL versus closing the door and embracing our new family.
But I donât judge anyone who does the opposite. Each family should make their own decisions, and I think if done with the right intentions (the ultimate happiness and fulfillment of the student), their decision is the only ârightâ one.
Just my $.02
Iâve been thinking on this for some weeks and glad to see the conversation here. The purpose of a waitlist is to keep your interest in a school, not to betray your loyalty elsewhere. Students have particular stories, and unique situations. Students also leave schools for many reasons, itâs not a big deal to the institutions, they expect some attrition and respect that people need to make their education work for them.
I would also point out that waitlists largely exist to deal with post-A10 enrollment needs, not pre-A10. Most schools donât go to their waitlist before A10 because theyâre still waiting to see how the acceptances play out. The only reason to go pre-A10 is if they can already see that their yield is way off what they expected (i.e., not everyone has responded yet and they can already see that theyâre going to end up under-enrolled). Given that these schools have pretty consistent yield rates year over year, and these AOs are awfully sophisticated at what they do, that just doesnât happen all that much. Much more common is that when those last acceptances/rejections come in on A10, they see that they have a space or two they didnât expect. And even more common is that when it comes time to pay a significant chunk of the tuition over the summer, they end up with a space or two. Now, sometimes the school was already over-enrolled and theyâre perfectly happy to lose a couple of kids along the way and they donât even go to the waitlist. But at any rate, I think any AO would tell you that the main point of waitlists is to give them the ability to deal with unexpected shortfalls in enrollment post-A10.
I donât think there is any question that is the purpose of wait lists. I cannot even think of any other reason for them. It is entirely a matter of maximizing their results. If their goal is 200 in a class, then they will use the wait list to get as close to that number as possible. If, as you say, they end up with 210 just from initial offers, they will of course do nothing else. If they are coming in at 190, they will make a few calls. The more prestigious the institution, the easier it is for them to get the exact number they want. Using the colleges as analogies, it is not random chance that Harvard has virtually the same number of people entering their university every year. They know almost exactly what their yield will be, and to the extent they are a bit off on the low side sometimes, they know very few will turn them down when given a chance off the wait list. The lower you go in how competitive the admissions are, the harder it is to predict yield and to be sure you can fill from the wait list.
If there were some âloyalty oathâ, either explicit or understood by convention, to the first school to which you made a deposit, wait lists wouldnât work well at all.
I know of a family that applied to several BSâs and a couple of day schools. The student was wait listed at their first choice boarding school. The student was not accepted at any other the other BSâs but was accepted at a day school. They decided to sign the enrollment contract at said day school, fearing that the wait listed boarding school would not pan out. About a month or so later, the student was offered admission at wait listed BS. The parents had to pay the full tuition at the day school even if their child did not attend the school. They chose to accept BS admission, pay full tuition to the BS, and they also paid the DS, approximately full tuition, around 45K. Bottom line, if you have more money to spend or wealth, then of course you are always going to have more options.
We had a similar situation with one of our children, between two DS. We forfeit a (quite substantial) deposit with DS1, but not the full year tuition. That seems unlikely to me - I donât know of any DS that require the full yr tuition in the spring prior. Typically you would only lose a deposit. I donât see how a school could enforce a contract if you did not attend, particularly any sort of desirable school, which could fill the spot from their own waitlist.