Theater BA to career: what % ?

College Majors Theater/Drama Majors
1

<p>I'd like to provide a rationality check for my daughter, who is interested in a career in acting.</p>

<p>If one goes for a BS degree in accounting, the odds of becoming a working accountant are probably pretty decent.</p>

<p>It seems to me that the same probably cannot be said about a BA with a major in Theater. Though I'm just speculating.</p>

<p>Does anybody know of anything written about what % of BA theater majors actually wind up working professionally in theater following graduation, and can support themselves with this craft for more than a couple of years?</p>

<p>IS a BA in Theater even much of an asset for an acting path? Perhaps it would be just as productive to major in whatever, and then take acting classes in NYC after graduation if she wants to pursue this craft professionally?</p>

<p>Anything that is written about this would be welcome. D will not simply accept my unsupported assertion.</p>

2

<p>I don't see too many kids working in the field of their major unless it is something career specific like engineering, nursing, accounting where jobs are bountiful. I know theatre majors who went on to become doctors, lawyers , teachers, businessmen. Many are in the fields of television, drama, film, but not performing. Many who are performing are not making any money at it. </p>

<p>For my children, I look at college as a place for them to grow up in many ways, not just academically. That they enjoy what they do while they grow up makes it just that much better. Three of mine are serious premed students and they are not going to make a dime until they are in their late 20's and not that much even then while accumulating a huge debt, and this is for a very directed profession. Why should we be expecting other 22 year olds to be making money and being self sufficient? I don't see a lot of psychology, English, history majors out there making money from their major. Business majors are a dime a dozen and unless they go into a directed field like accounting, they only thing they are assistant managers of are mall type stores, if that, and a degree is usually unnecessary for the position. I can't see someone who wants to give drama, art, anything a try, forcing themselves into an accounting program or going into nursing just to have a field where they can be readily hired. You can be productive getting a BA in Theatre and taking community college courses in accounting afterwards. My son is taking management and business courses now at a local state school after getting an English degree, and I believe that it is a more powerful addendum to his solid college BA in English than if he had gone to a local college for a business degree and then tried to study English afterwards. College is a very special time for kids, and I feel they should study what they want. The more pragmatic programs are more available at local schools at cheap prices after graduation.</p>

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<p>Why is your daughter interested in a BA in theatre? If she REALLY wants to be an actor, a BFA in Acting is the way to go. The stats for those with BFA's in Acting are probably better than those who received BA's in Theatre. While an Acting BFA will by no means guarantee work, it does show the casting director that the actor has been well-trained. On the other hand, a BA in theatre is really just a liberal arts degree that focuses on theatre studies, etc, and does not provide professional training.</p>

4

<p>The MT thread has gone into great detail the differences between a BFA and a BA in drama/MT. But I don't think getting work is one of them. Don't really even need a degree for that. It's really how you want to spend those 4 years between ages 18-22. I think finding a school you like and a program you like is more important than the actual degree you earn. And being around the type of students you like is important too.</p>

<p>My boys in elementary school have a teacher who was a drama major at a liberal arts college. He got in enough education credits to get a start on teaching certification, and now runs the theatre program at the school---2 plays a year, one a musical. He gets extra for that. And it was a plus in his getting the teaching job as well. He gives private lessons for audition for extra money and spends his summers at theatre workshops either as a teacher or participant, depending on his mood. Couldn't be happier, he says. And he makes a decent income as well. The theatre major not only meant acting, but directing, scenes, music, all of the components of producing a show. Great hands on management skills, in my opinion, and he could have just as easily gone intp management rather than education after he finished his undergraduate studies.</p>

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<p>Jamimom-</p>

<p>It sounds like your kids have a great teacher, and I understand everything that you are advocating. Yes, it's true that there are many people out there without any degrees that get work and as I said before, I don't believe that a BFA degree is a guarantee for work. However, if there is someone out there that truly wants to be an actor, I believe they should shoot for the stars and try to get into a Juilliard or Carnegie or NCArts for undergrad work. You're right, that isn't the right path for everybody...there are many who become working actors after attaing BA degrees (or, again, no degree at all). The real difference between the BFA and the BA is quality and DEPTH of training. And I definitely do believe that a BFA from a prestigious acting program on the resume WILL catch the eye of the casting director and maybe that will make him pay closer attention to the 30 second monologue.</p>

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<p>Having just gone on the auditon trail of the prestigious BFA programs, I can tell you that getting into one of them makes HPY admissions a slamdunk. Sure, if you are at the point where you can get into Juilliard's acting programs or CCM's MT progam, you will have quite a plum to add to the resume. But having a son who audiitioned for both programs with their single digit accept rates, I would not count on getting in. Sometimes it comes down to a choice between Roosevelt College's BFA program and Goucher's BA in theatre. For most 18 year olds who may like drama but are not at the point that they can get by a tough audition (and there are also many who could but don't because of the sheer numbers), a BA at a good liberal arts school makes a wonderful prelude to this field. You can also choose to change your mind and still stay at many schools that have a variety of choices. My son auditioned for over a dozen programs and ended up choosing a BA program at a university over a number of BFA programs that were more specific to his particular field of choice, but environmentally not what he preferred at the moment. My friend's son is going through this same choice process. And these are kids who have tremendous resumes. I know kids who want to go into theatre without that extensive experience and are not quite ready to go on the audition trail. I am assuming the OP's D is in this category, because of the BA in theatre. If the girl wants to research some audition programs, that is fine, but if she is not that far along in the process, it may well be the best option to go to a more well rounded college. As a mom, I supported either choice.</p>

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<p>Having been obsessed with this topic for quite awhile now and having done a lot of research on the subject -- I'd like to offer my two-cents, for whatever it's worth. My sitch: I have the stats and the yearning to get a first class education, but don't want it to limit my opportunities as a performer or make me "uncompetitive". My initial thought was that choosing between a B.F.A. and B.A. was equivalent to choosing between the vital training needed to have a shot at an acting/musical theater career and recieving an Ivy-caliber education that would enable me to become a really well-rounded, educated individual. I do think that in many ways, programs offer one option or the other. But for the majority of schools, the distinction between a B.A. and a B.F.A., from my research, is not as clear cut as on paper. Some B.F.A. programs offer much more in the liberal arts aspect, some B.A. programs offer what they consider "pre-professional" training in the setting of a liberal arts education. The trick is to really really study the specifics of each and every program and more specifically, the teachers. Some B.A. programs have managed to find incredible, "conservatory-caliber" teachers who any theater student, no matter what degree he/she is pursuing (B.A. or B.F.A.) would benefit from. And some B.F.A. programs have teachers that you won't learn a thing from. Would training intensively for four years really increase your chances at success if your teachers weren't stellar? The concept of B.F.A vs. B.A., I think, has become way too conceptualized when in actuality it is sooooo important to realize the strengths and weaknesses of a specific program- not just the type of degree it offers.</p>

<p>This decision is so individual. There is no path that is right for everyone. Indeed, statistically, I'm sure the majority of college-graduate actors are B.F.A. degree holders. But neither degree is a guarantee of a career in theater. Furthermore, many theater majors in a B.A. setting have no desire to become performers, whereas your B.F.A. holders are ALL presumably looking for a career in the theater- so it's no surprise that the B.F.A.s go on to achieve these careers. So, who knows- the training itself could be tantamount, but the aspirations very different. Also realize that a B.A. candidate can supplement training later- because though the training may be comparable, B.A. and B.F.A. programs are obviously very different in distributions- (especially in straight acting) with an M.F.A or conservatory program. However, I know a talented girl at Cornell who is planning on moving to NYC to pursue a career straight after college. It's not impossible to do. If the dream is there, it doesn't need to be an "all or nothing" deal with going the B.F.A. vs. B.A. route. I think, and again- I still have yet to go through this- but I really think, it's possible to have it both. Maybe statistically unlikely- but with tenacity and a strong focused dream, still POSSIBLE. I was recently reading an article about Melissa Errico, musical theater actress (with a successful career) who went to yale undergrad to study art history- but to quote Andrew Lippa's "The Wild Party" "take a look at her now".</p>

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<p>P.S. something fun-- though obviously not having anything to do with real statistics or the like-- is to go to broadwayworld.com and type in different university names under the "search" option. Look under the "who's who" results-- I found it muy interesante that Yale yielded the most results in that category of any of the schools I put in. The artsy fartsy folks in New Haven must be putting something in the water... Then again, as my high school music director says- "brilliance is contagious" (guess it doesn't just refer to the prospective doctors and lawyers!)</p>

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<p>With respect to my situation, D is a top student; infatuated with the idea of a career in the theater. Wants to pursue liberal arts degree to hedge her bets, in case the acting thing doesn't work out. She is not interested in theater as an academic matter; she wants to perform. Nevertheless, her fallback plan favors a BA, not BFA. Law school might be her fallback plan.</p>

<p>My purpose frankly is to caution her about pursuing theater as a top priority, at least in college. I suspect that not very many people who try it actually get work in acting for very long. I'd like to be able to present her with some facts about her odds of becoming a successful working actress. If there are any facts of this nature around.</p>

10

<p>Keep in mind that different schools have VERY different BA programs. (Some are very intense, and some aren't. Some focus on a more technical aspect, and some focus more on acting.)</p>

<p>How long has your daughter been interested in a career as an actor? How familiar is she with the reality of it? Are there other fields that she is very interested in as well?</p>

<p>There are many, many, many things that you must consider. (way too many to begin to list here)</p>

<p>I have chosen to go for a BA in theater (at Northwestern University). I am strongly considering double majoring or minoring. I would be happy to answer any questions you have! Good luck!</p>

<p>By the way, what year is your daughter in high school? She may want to look into summer programs. I attended Northwestern's National High School Institute, and HIGHLY recommend it.</p>

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<p>"How long has your daughter been interested in a career as an actor?"
5 years</p>

<p>"How familiar is she with the reality of it?"
Not familiar. I want these statistics as part of the familiarity education process.</p>

<p>"Are there other fields that she is very interested in as well?"
No. She is very good in all academic areas, and is a brilliant writer, but has no passion for any of them.</p>

<p>She is looking at summer programs.</p>

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<p>monydad, I don't think you're going to find the type of statistics you're looking for regarding working actors. The truth is that most working actors have not gone to college at all, let alone received a BFA in drama. The percentage of Broadway or off-Broadway actors in NYC who have a college degree is small, those who have studied drama in college is even smaller. Making a career in the acting world is difficult, I don't think anyone can disagree with that. We know many actors who have been part of Broadway productions, national tours, off-Broadway shows, workshops, readings, and also have a few family members in the business side of theatre in the city and elsewhere. It's daunting if you look at the odds. Having said that, I have a D who is studying drama at Tisch. She has our full support to pursue her education and her passion for theatre. We felt that if she wants to pursue this path then she should have the opportunity for the absolute best training and education possible. This is becoming more and more important to young actors. If you have seen a non-Equity tour recently and perused the playbill, you'll see that most of these young actors are recent college grads. So the tide is turning in that regard, I believe.</p>

<p>Our D had many other options but chose this path. She was an academically gifted student who excelled throughout her school years. She had excellent test scores and gpa. She probably could have pursued any academic path and been successful but her passion lies onstage and in writing. She's double majoring at NYU and is challenged both intellectually and artistically. Our feelings are that college is a time for kids to learn, to explore, to experience as much as possible. She's doing just that. As much as our D1 is doing in her academic experience, and as much as D3 and D4 will do in the future.</p>

<p>These kids who have a passion for theatre are driven. If this is the path they want, then I feel that they should be supported. It is imperative, though, that they know it is not an easy path. Gaining admission to one of the good drama programs is extremely difficult. As jamimom said, the selectivity ratings are in the Ivy range and some even tougher. Most kids who pursue this have had this love for years, have taken voice, dance, and acting lessons, have performed in school, community, and some even professional, productions. Many like my D attended an arts h/s. If you haven't already, I'd recommend that you read through the long MT thread. There is a wealth of information there which will be helpful to you in your quest for familiarity. :)</p>

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<p>Monydad,
Here’s a link to the Actors Equity Association’s Annual</a> Report. In 2003-04, 44.5% of members got work, 14.4% worked in any given week, median weeks worked was 11.6%, and median earnings per member was $6,638. Here are the websites for the Screen Actors Guild <a href="SAG">url=www.sag.org/sagWebApp/index.jsp&lt;/a> and the American Federation of Radio and Television Artists <a href="AFTRA">url=www.aftra.org/aftra/aftra.htm&lt;/a>, though I couldn’t find similar reports for them. According to the U.S. Department of Labor, SAG reported that the average member earned less than $5,000 from acting though they list the median overall annual earnings of salaried actors as $23,470 in 2002. Also, keep in mind that all these numbers are from union members and do not include figures for the many thousands of actors who have never gotten enough work or found themselves in position to qualify for membership. You also might want to look around each union’s website for information on all the hoops you have to jump through to become a member. </p>

<p>Really, you have to be slightly nuts to go into this. I do think it’s important for anybody making this decision to know the facts so they can certify their own nuttiness, though. Any star-struck person who goes into it thinking it’s likely to be a lucrative career is … well … just naïve. Every single adult actor who I have heard tell stories about working professionally in New York and Los Angeles has emphasized that if you can see yourself being happy and fulfilled doing anything else, you shouldn’t be an actor. Do keep in mind, however, that for those of us who know this and still plan to pursue it, it isn’t a “bug.” It’s more like a terminal disease. Don’t even bother trying to cure it. We may starve as actors, but that death is far better than the slow, excruciating demise we'd suffer if committed to an accounting cube farm.</p>

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<p>alwaysamom:</p>

<p>I have visited MT, but can't recall seeing something that was specifically on point. Much discussion, there and here, is appropriately enough about getting into particular programs at the college level. I don't recall seeing much discussion about whether it's really "worth it", in terms of probable achievement of an acting career, to undertake to gain admission to these programs in the first place. Perhaps you can direct me to a relevant thread there, since I can't recall seing one myself . My daughter has no interest in becoming a high school theater teacher, or tech person, or directing; just acting. So if the "payoff" appears very remote, there's not much point in it for her, I think.</p>

<p>But I'm just trying to get her some data, not make her decision for her.</p>

<p>thesbohemian:
Thanks</p>

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<p>So if the "payoff" appears very remote, there's not much point in it for her, I think.</p>

<p>Please correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression that you think that if you can show her hard evidence of the lack of work in the acting profession after graduation, that will convince her to give up this track. Yes, rationally speaking, if the payoff is remote, one would NOT choose acting as a goal, I think most agree.</p>

<p>But what I think I'm hearing is your daughter is not really looking at what will happen after college or whether she can be successful in the long run, she is just telling you that is what she wants to do now, and is hopeful that she can somehow make lemonade with it down the road.</p>

<p>I do see that you are trying to do your very best for her and you want only the very best for her, and you'd rather rip your own arm off than see her heart broken later when the "real" world presents itself. But, IMHO I think you're better off not trying to put together facts and figures to present your case as it may come off as confrontational, cold and nonsupportive at a very sensitive time. </p>

<p>We have had very similar conversations with our D, and our share of moody evenings, doors slammed and tearful dinners at our house--believe me, I know whereof I speak!</p>

<p>I have read a few posts here on CC about some really great sounding LAC theater programs that welcome all participants, such as Brown and Cornell. Since you say your daughter is a talented writer and an outstanding student, such a LAC education would prepare her for most any job after graduation (including a graduate or formal acting program) and in the meantime indulge her passion. Schools of that ilk with the BA should open doors for her whatever she chooses to do later. I can't see how having "theatre" on the diploma would be a negative. Is that the main part you object to? Can you add some thoughts to this?</p>

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<p>monydad, my mistake. I misunderstood your quest. If your only wish is to find out how lucrative a career this would be for her, then there's not much point in perusing the MT thread. Most of us whose children have this passion (and the children themselves) are more interested in finding the best place for them to train and get a quality education, finding the appropriate curriculum, the focus which may suit them the best, the best fit on location and atmosphere, the quality of the faculty, the academic rigor, etc. etc. The promise of success and financial security is not of utmost importance, because, truthfully, such a promise does not exist. I understand the realities of the situation but I can assure you, the latter was not a consideration and should not be for any of these kids. If it is for you, or for your D, then theatre probably is not the right path for her.</p>

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<p>TaraMom:</p>

<p>Without the data I don’t have any facts to determine if the payoff (i.e. working) actually DOES appear to be remote. Just anecdotal perceptions, which may not be accurate. Maybe there is no real problem. That would be ok too. I just want to know, and I want her to know. She can make a decision, but it should be an informed one.</p>

<p>And you’re right, if the facts come out one way she will not be happy to receive them. But I feel I need to present them anyway. She will ignore it initially, or worse, but eventually, if is true, and reinforced elsewhere, she will probably accept the data.</p>

<p>If my son one day comes in and tells me he wants to go to Georgetown, because his career plan after college is to become President of the United States, I will point out to him that becoming President might be something to aspire to, but it is not an expected outcome, so he might make some additional plans.</p>

<p>If my daughter is driving, and a car suddenly pulls out heading towards us and is in her blind spot, I will probably say something about it. Even though 90% of the time she will give me some snippy answer to the effect that she already saw it. The other10%, by speaking up I could avoid an accident.</p>

<p>I think the LACs with good theater programs are in fact the way she should go. If it turns out ultimately that she cannot pursue acting though, I think there is a way that having “Theater” on the degree is a negative. It is negative because she will have devoted about 1/3 of her college classes to a field that she never uses subsequently. I myself received training in a profession that I no longer practice and I wish to heck I’d used that time instead to take more courses that might enrich my life more now, like various other areas of the liberal arts. In her case, she has no academic interest in theater apart from acting. For her this would not be just like other liberal arts courses; it is really more like vocational training like my previous accounting degree example. If she takes enough theater courses for a major, and then never gets to act, then for her, a good chunk of her precious, irreplaceable time in college would have, at the end of the day, been better spent elsewhere. That’s the negative, IMO.</p>

<p>Her course choices will ultimately be her decision. But she should make informed choices.</p>

<p>Alwaysamom:</p>

<p>“I understand the realities of the situation”.
Well good for you, but I don’t, not without seeing the data. That’s precisely what I’m trying to get to, to understand the realities of the situation. After I do that, then I guess I’ll be closer to where you already are on this.</p>

<p>“The promise of success and financial security is not of utmost importance”.
OK, I’m with you to this point, but that doesn’t mean they are irrelevant either. Career viability is a consideration for most people, I would think. Not the sole, dispositive consideration necessarily, but a consideration nonetheless. </p>

<p>“The latter (e.g. success) was not a consideration and should not be for any of these kids.”</p>

<p>You’re saying here that these aren’t even to be considered in any measure at all. Now you lost me. Why is that? Does someone get a trust fund as soon as they gain entrance to a theater program? Is it an entrance requirement that all admitted students must already have a trust fund? If they get all this training, but then they can’t use it because they can’t get any acting jobs, are they given the automatic right to do college all over again, for free? This is solely vocational training for her, as I see it. If it turns out there is no vocation afterwards, this will have been wasted time, considering other things she could have been learning instead.</p>

<p>“If it is for you, or for your D, then theatre probably is not the right path for her.”</p>

<p>Why does it follow that theater is probably not right for my daughter, simply because I counsel to take its viability into account? Even if it turns out that I am more cautious about it then she is, at the end of the day she will decide her course. If you have a different relationship with your children more power to you.</p>

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<p>monydad, perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, and if so, please forgive, but your tone throughout this discussion has been one of condescension, not to mention rudeness. You are totally misrepresenting what I, and others, have said here when we've made a sincere attempt to give you the benefit of our information and experience. I will clarify one thing which you obviously didn't understand. It was 'the promise' which I was referring to when I mentioned that it was not a consideration, because, truthfully, there is no promise or guarantee, to any of these kids regardless of how talented they may be. I wish your D good luck on her search. I have a feeling she is going to need it.</p>

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<p>"perhaps I'm misinterpreting you"</p>

<p>Quite agree.</p>

<p>Sorry you feel that way, but thanks for your input</p>

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<p>Guys, lets stay friendly. I think that monydad's question was reasonable, and while he's wording in it a way that may sound offensive or be demeaning to the field that all of your kids are entrenched in, he's admitting he doesn't KNOW and that these are just assumptions based on what the judgements are about going into this field. I can tell you first hand that a looooot of parents wont even consider letting their kids go into theater, let alone a B.F.A. program because of the difficulty of being a contender in the job market. My parents, while supportive, have random spurts of "I think you'll grow out of musical theater" "you'll get bored of it" or "is this realistic, Danielle?".... so I know firsthand that monydad's uninformed perspective isn't an anomaly- and doesn't indicate that he's not supportive of his child. Quite the opposite probably, he's just worried and wants to make sure she has a secure future ahead of her. Now to address monydad-- sorry for my initial response, which was unrelated to your question but I sometimes just have to say whatever's in my head when a post hits a chord. Next... I think that although you raise a realistic point about the field, there's one thing that you're wrong about. That's this sense of "wasting time" and not being able to use a theater degree or having it in some way connote something negative if trying to get into a field. I think that if this is what you are worried about- a) just thank your lucky stars that your daughter is not pushing for a B.F.A. program, because she will get a solid, well-rounded education that encompasses A LOT more than theater in a BA program- and will enable her (especially if she goes to a great university or LAC) to go to grad school and pursue something else if she changes her mind about acting, b) email the drama department heads at some of the LACs she is interested in and ask them what careers their grads have gone on to... I'm positive you'll have far more lawyers/doctors/writers than actors, so that might make you put to rest the notion that she'd be compromising her future or limiting herself with this degree. c) as one poster who worked in schools (I forget who) mentioned on this board a while back-- a VERY small percent of students go on to become the careers they majored in. So this idea that she'd be wasting her time, IMO, is ludicrous (not trying to be harsh, just my opinon)-- if this is the case than all of the people I know who majored in something other than their present careers were "wasting their time" (and that'd be about 90% of the people I know). Heres an example. My dad was premed at Yale, went on to med school etc etc and thus "didn't waste time" per se -- he's a brilliant guy, but guess what? Medicine sucks now, he works all hours of the night and while he's a very well respected doctor, he wishes he'd gotten into another field earlier or at least broadened his horizons so he didn't have to spend every waking moment in the ICU. Then theres my mom-- she majored in theater (B.A.) at University of Michigan and is now a director of advertising at a very well known television station (want to preserve some anonymity here). She loved Mich, and feels it's served her well and wouldn't have EVER traded it for a "communications major" or the like.</p>

<p>I also think that trying to get the "facts" is reasonable, but at the same time if you are trying to simply convince her out of pursuing this, she'll know. And if you really ARE trying to just gather hard facts and present them objectively, then you might accomplish the opposite of what you want (which I know would be my reaction if my parents did this) and convince her that the only way to accomplish her dream is to go the B.F.A. route (which I, for one, do not believe is true). My profile is very similar to your daughter's-- I have great stats and am very strong at writing- but my passion and my dream is theater (PERFORMANCE, not study of) and I can tell you that when my parents were coaxing me to consider a B.A. rather than the B.F.A. in acting/M.T. that I'd originally thought was the "only way"-- I resisted it with everything I had. We're still teenagers, ya know- and resisting our parents when they seem to be unsupportive of what we want is a honed skill at this point. My mom actually had to take me on an extensiiiiiiiive journey to Cornell U, where I stayed over with a theater major, to finally show me that this is just where she thought I'd fit best, knowing me more than I know myself. P.S.- in a BA program it's easy to double major- I'm thinking of possibly doing English and Theater- which the girl I stayed with at Cornell did and it's easy there because a lost of the courses are cross-listed in the theater and english depts, and they're both part of Arts and Sciences so it all works nicely. Anyway, I just wanted to respond and tell you that I KNOW where you're coming from... but I think there are many reasons why you don't need to be so worried- you're daughter sounds like she has figured this out for herself and isn't just pursuing false hopes, trust that.</p>

<p>Hope this helped. </p>

<p>Danielle</p>