Theoretical question: safety school for someone who wants a small school

Parent Cafe
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<p>Suppose a student prefers a small school (typical LAC size under 3,000 students).</p>

<p>But suppose the student also prefers to have other students around with a similar level of academic ability and motivation, and feels that s/he may not fit in very well if there are too few other students that fit that description.</p>

<p>If such a student wants to have safeties in his/her application list, what would you suggest? Favor bigger schools, where the large size is more likely to include a large enough subset of similar ability and motivation students even if the average is much lower (as it would be for a safety), or favor smaller schools and put up with the lack of similar ability and motivation students? Of course, both can be included in the application list, but then the student must decide in April if s/he only gets into the safeties.</p>

<p>Assume that the safeties are safe from a cost and financial aid perspective, and that net price is not different enough for that to be the deciding factor.</p>

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<p>There are many academic safety schools with assured merit scholarships whose students are fairly high achieving. Hendrix College and New College of Florida immediately come to mind, as do a number of other schools. Even though larger schools have a great deal of high achieving students, a gifted student might find the average level of academics at those assured full tuition/full ride scholarship schools too easy. </p>

<p>For instance, when I searched for safety schools (technically not assured admit, but basically assumed admission), a student at one of the CC favorite safety schools contacted me that although the science classes were challenging, many of the non weeder courses were geared towards the lowest denominator of students and that as a humanities major he often felt bored and unchallenged. So even though a safety school might have a great deal of highly intelligent people, they often congregate in a few majors leavings students who wish to pursue other fields wishing they had gone to more selective schools. I’ve also heard this complaint from one of the full ride scholars at my current institution, so it’s not as though that issue is specific to one particular university.</p>

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<p>The issue about majors is interesting – if an intellectually oriented student wants to do a rigorous course of study in a major that happens to be a “gut” major at many schools (particularly at those which would be safeties for him/her), would s/he be able to find good safety options?</p>

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<p>When I was visiting schools with my sons, I sometimes felt that certain “safety schools” had different vibes than others.</p>

<p>Some schools seemed to attract bright, ambitious students–including students like my boys, who were classic late bloomers. At 14/15, they were plenty smart, they just didn’t turn in homework with clockwork regularity…and, of course, they weren’t going to have that top 10% class rank.</p>

<p>Other schools seemed to attract more kids who were middle of the road all along.</p>

<p>Others seemed just like party schools for kids looking for another four years of fun.</p>

<p>My boys’ safeties seemed to attract the late-bloomer ready to turn on the academic jets type, and the students found plenty of competition when they reached campus.</p>

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<p>I would say forego the “quality of students” for the small size. In a small school a student could easier make friends with their professors if they really can’t find other students they feel are “on their level”. Also, a person can’t supplement the benefits of a small school as easy as they can supplement the “benefits” of “similar level students”.</p>

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<p>^ I don’t know if that’s true. I attend a very small high school and while I have excellent, even friendly, relationships with my teachers, a Professor cannot be the same kind of friend as a college student. Regardless of how smart one is, most students wish to socialize, dabble in alcohol, travel, whatever and indulge in non academic activities which are best shared with individuals of similar age. </p>

<p>While you probably will say that any well adjusted student should be able to make friends with anyone, I think sometimes (for some individuals, at least) it is hard to relate to people who do not share your drive. I have a friend who is absolutely brilliant - has done very well in my nation’s science fairs, does lots of leadership - extracurriculars and yet goes to a small school where most people are very focused on either attaining just grades, or don’t care at all. While her teachers love her, she personally dislikes the place. </p>

<p>My country hosts a national science fair and a team for internationals ever year and in many of the surveys the alumni organization does, the reason why most students like it is because its one of the few times where you get to socialize and hang out with individuals like themselves. I don’t think it’s meant to be elitist per se - which is what I infer you think based on your " ‘on their level’ " remarks but that its simply more enjoyable and stimulating.</p>

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<p>I would agree with Whenhen that there are quite a few good schools that fit the description. Look in the midwest…lots of smart, ambitious, intellectual kids don’t want to go to a big 10 school so the midwest has colleges of many different flavors that fit the description.</p>

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<p>One of the pieces of advice I would give someone headed for a “safety school” is to look for where the good teachers and the good students are. I think it’s a mistake to go to college thinking, “I am an Economics major” or “I am an English major”. Everyone has areas of interest, but unless you are completely inflexible – in which case, your safety wasn’t a good safety if it wasn’t fine in the one area you wanted – you are going to have a better experience if you go where the action is rather than hoping the action comes around to where you are.</p>

<p>Academically, if you find the good, exciting teachers, you are going to learn and get excited yourself, and I bet anything that’s where you will find other motivated, successful students. You don’t need 100 great faculty and 1,000 great students to have a great college career. You need 2 or 3 great faculty with whom you have a close relationship, and 2 or 3 great student peers in your major and maybe a few more student peers who are good friends with completely different interests. I believe you can find that almost anywhere, but you can’t say, “It’s Russian Literature or nothing.” (Although, I guess, if there’s a good faculty member in Russian Literature, you can probably have an Oxbridge-like four-year tutorial with a little maneuvering.) </p>

<p>Two of the smartest people I know went to small colleges that were essentially unselective. One went on to Harvard Law School, was one of maybe three people in his class who had universal respect from students and faculty, and now is the managing partner of a top-shelf international law firm – a total winner in everything he has ever done. The other, recruited to her college as an athlete, went to law school at Penn, has had a great public interest career, and is a huge national expert in her field.</p>

<p>President Obama’s Chief of Staff, Denis McDonough, went to St. Johns University in Minnesota, a tiny LAC with a 75% admission rate. Obama’s first Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel, went to only slightly larger Sarah Lawrence College, which admits about 2/3rds of the men who apply. Obviously, that doesn’t make them financial safeties, but the point is that these really smart, really dynamic men were not somehow held back by going to small, not-very-selective LACs.</p>

<p>The same is true of large public universities, too. I’m not suggesting that LACs are always better. I am merely arguing that LACs are fine.</p>

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<p>Could someone maybe name some of those colleges?
Like the intellectual/challenging/stimulating environment schools with admission rates above 50%.</p>

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<p>The other St. John’s (Annapolis and Santa Fe) have pretty high acceptance rates (78%), but you do have to buy into the Great Books program. They don’t require SAT’s but of the half who do report scores Middle 50% Verbal 600-740 and Middle 50% Math 570-680. The three kids I know who have gone are very, very smart, but march to their own drummers.</p>

<p>For once I think I disagree with JHS, I think there’s a lot to be said for a safety that has a really good program in your major even if overall it’s not quite such an academic powerhouse. (American if you are interested in International Studies for example.)</p>

<p>You can also think about gender - women applying to tech schools and men applying to formerly female LACs will generally have an edge.</p>

<p>I also agree about looking beyond your geographic area. Way too few people on the East Coast consider the midwest LACs.</p>

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<p>Nobody has mentioned the CTCL schools?</p>

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<p>This is the kind of question where I can only answer, “It depends.” If the student sits in on classes at the safety LAC and finds that they are adequate intellectually, then problem solved. If not, they’re probably better off at the big school. It’s a lonely life being at an LAC where you don’t fit in, especially if it’s in a small town. I take the opposite position from SerenityJade: there are lots of ways to find small-school experiences within a big school, but if your small school doesn’t have what you need, then it doesn’t, and there’s no way to dig to find it.</p>

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<p>Late bloomers around here go to Oxy - the kids are smart, but the competitiveness is not as high.</p>

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<p>Kalamazoo College, Beloit, Dennison, Rhodes, St. Olaf, Centre</p>

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<p>For a male, Wabash College fits the bill. We were also very impressed with Lawrence and Sewanee.</p>

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<p>Our D has a similar goal – a small school with lots of engaged and bright students. Her safeties at this point are Rhodes, Trinity Univ. in TX and Austin College, all of which are likely to give her scholarships/tuition discounts. </p>

<p>Another is Connecticut College. But, we haven’t visited, so I can’t tell whether it has quite the same academic vibe.</p>

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<p>*Suppose a student prefers a small school (typical LAC size under 3,000 students).</p>

<p>But suppose the student also prefers to have other students around with a similar level of academic ability and motivation, and feels that s/he may not fit in very well if there are too few other students that fit that description.*</p>

<p>I see this as a problem, unless the student isn’t looking for much/any merit awards to help the school to be a safety.</p>

<p>Safety schools rarely offer great need-based aid, so if aid is needed, then merit is usually the source. </p>

<p>At a school with about 3000 students, that would mean about 800 freshmen. The top quartile would be 200 students in various majors…likely concentrated in about 12 more challenging majors. </p>

<p>Does the student care about male/female ratios? Many of those smallish schools have lopsided ratios.</p>

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<p>Conn College is very nice, but it’s meaningfully more selective than the other colleges being named here, or at least most of them. Somehow, it solved the former-women’s-college problem better than anyone else, and draws essentially equal numbers of men and women, with equivalent qualifications. It helps that it is a member of the sportsy/academic NESCAC league (along with Williams, Amherst, Wesleyan, Trinity (CT), Tufts, and some others) – basically the LAC equivalent of the Ivy League, in which Conn College plays approximately the role of Brown, except that it’s on a lovely river and near the beach, not in downtown Providence.</p>

<p>Some others, not as selective, where I have known happy, stimulated students: Earlham, Hobart & William Smith, Goucher, Roanoke, Wheaton (MA). Around here, Ursinus and Franklin & Marshall are very popular.</p>

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<p>These LACs had admit rates above 50% in 2011 and are highly respected for their academics:</p>

<p>Grinnell
Mount Holyoke
Sewanee
Whitman
St. Olaf
Lawrence U
Beloit
College of Wooster
Kalamazoo College</p>

<p>Some other very good LACs were just under 50%, including:
Smith
Bryn Mawr
Denison
Rhodes</p>

<p>No doubt there are others as well; I’m not trying to diss any school by not including it on this list, but I’m only listing schools where I’ve heard positive things about the academic/intellectual culture. </p>

<p>Some of the historic Seven Sisters are a great admissions “bargain” for women willing to attend an all-women’s school. They have deep and rich academic traditions and resources, but their admit rates tend to be high because men can’t apply (cutting the potential applicant pool by half) and many women won’t consider a women’s college. There are also some very strong LACs in the Midwest and South that many Northeasterners won’t apply to or, if admitted, elect not to attend for geographic reasons. So it’s not surprising that even among top 10 LACs, admit rates are highest at Wellesley, a women’s college, and Carleton, a leading Midwestern LAC (both at 31% in 2011). Grinnell (in Grinnell, Iowa, 50.9%) and Smith (another women’s college, 45.5%) are top 25-ranked LACs, and Bryn Mawr (46.3%, another women’s college) just barely missed the US News top 26, coming in at #26.</p>

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<p>However, high admission rate does not necessarily mean that the school is a safety (the school may actually be very selective, but attract only a small number of applicants with high academic credentials).</p>

<p>The question is theoretical in that the theoretical student needs to look at safeties where his/her academic credentials basically mean certain admission, but that means that most students at the school have significantly lower academic credentials (the “level of applicant’s interest” game may also reduce the number of usable safety schools, but that does not really affect this discussion).</p>