"They got in because they're black"?

Student Lounge African-American Students
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<p>I don’t think Clarence Thomas campaigns.</p>

<p>Anyway, while I have a problem with purely race based admissions, I am totally fine with holistic admissions where race is a component. </p>

<p>There was seriously horrible racial discrimination in our history. Mit wasn’t simply people saying you can’t come here so black applicants went to elsewhere. There was discrimination of a nature that said you are good enough because of your inferior nature. I knew a Howard trained engineer who could only get a job as a Navy cook in WW2. </p>

<p>There was real, long lasting economic harm done to Blacks. That was the intent of these policies. </p>

<p>I don’t believe in reparations either though. Because I understand that even if reparations were paid, it’s not like that money would go in your bank account. It would go to gatekeepers like the naacp or some other organization to dole out the same way welfare spending is doled out by the government. Actual Black people would never see 99.99% of any money if reparations were paid.</p>

<p>Education, something that was once intentionally, systematically and legally denied to Black people is the fix for generations of slavery and racism. It’s also the very thing denigrated by many Urban Black youth today. The future looks bleak if this trend continues. We reject the very thing that would most uplift and free us.</p>

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<p>Been hearing it all my life. My daughter has to deal with it now. As African American women who go to/went to Yale, it is just a fact of life. I move on and have told my daughter to do likewise. Now then it manifests itself in other ways (outward or subtle discrimination), then it becomes an issue.</p>

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<p>That is one of the most insulting things you can say to a student. A stundent who has worked hard and over come obstacles that most can’t begin to comprehend, both subtle and not so. I pray for the day that we as a country can get past our issue of racism. </p>

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<p>It is true in some cases that someone was offered a spot that they would not have been because of various reasons. In terms of diversity, engineering schools will admit less qualified women - I do believe that was part of the reason I was admitted to an Ivy. So getting in “because you’re” whatever - black, female, gay, atheist, legacy, athlete, Native American, etc. is not exactly true, it is one of many factors. And in many cases, the person would have gotten in anyway.
However, it is an really rude comment to make.</p>

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<p>Comments like that used to bother me, and still do to an extent. But the more I hear Justice Sonia Sotomayor talk so eloquently about it, the cuter I think it is when people say it :blush: </p>

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<p>I agree with kali22, I think it’s just one of the MANY factors that colleges use in admissions. No one truly knows why anyone gets in. Just because your black does not mean your automatically in a top school. I remember seeing that Cornell accepts 20% of the blacks that apply. But they have a 16% acceptance rate. Which means 80% blacks get rejected. The only reason why they accept “more” blacks is because not that many blacks apply in the first place. And more people are applying to college so it’s going to get more competitive. </p>

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<pre><code> Its obvious that many people of different races get in. They get in because the colleges feel and know that the person can succeed and thrive in that atmosphere. That has never been a question of doubt. Race has never been a factor in determining capability, but this is just my opinion: affirmative action, and other policies alike, create a “reverse discrimination”. In places where I have never seen any Asians get in with certain stats and scores, I see a ton of URMs get in.

I’m not hating on anybody but I just feel like Asians are not getting the same treatment. There’s really not anything you can say to prove that what I am saying is wrong.

I also saw someone say that legacies get preference, and yes, they do. It’s sort of like school pride, to have a student from a trusted person who already went to the school.

As for the people saying recruited athletes don’t deserve to get in with their stats, you are completely wrong. They are at least somewhat capable of doing the work, and they excel greatly in a potential career path. College prepares people for careers, and sports very well may be their career. You are in no place to discount their achievements and hard work.
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<p>Some of think that since admissions is a selective process that a school has the right to pick and choose.</p>

<p>No student has earned the right to attend a school by virtue of their stats. You may feel like you earned it but that’s a notion that your mommy and daddy may have instilled but that’s not reality. Students still have to be selected by a university that can use any mix of factors as the basis of their decision and as long as race, religion or creed is not the reason for not being selected and universities should be given wide latitude to pick choose from among a large number of applicants. Universities shouldn’t be slaves to a number or stat on a test that they didn’t even create. We are lucky that schools have agreed to use some of these more objective criteria at all because there is no law that says the ACT or SAT has to be used in admissions decisions. It doesn’t have to be used at all.</p>

<p>It’s not reverse discrimination because there is not a pattern of discrimination. Asians with high stats are both accepted and rejected at elite schools. The dirty secret is that so are minorities, legacies and exceptional athletes. We know exceptional athletes get rejected because most elite university teams fall far short of being the best. They could recruit better athletes but hold them to a higher academic standard so they lose some really top talent. And legacies get rejected all the time.</p>

<p>When blacks were discriminated against based on race, 0% of the incoming class was black. Compare that to the 40% of incoming classes that are Asians at schools that a few Asians want to claim are engaging in reverse discrimination.</p>

<p>Anyway, some people will never be convinced. Shutting down the brain to reasonable discussion and debate and refusing to be persuadable before hearing the matter should be reason enough not to accept a person into an institution of higher learning since that person doesn’t know what it means to learn.</p>

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<p>@Iamthegoat I pulled this gem from your other ranting thread:</p>

<p>"It may sound to some like I am being racist, but I am definitely not.’</p>

<p>Sure glad we cleared that up, lol</p>

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<p>@planner03 I think I sense great sarcasm…? Lol. Anyway, that comment I made was in context to something else I said. I forgot lol. </p>

<p>@Madaboutx‌ I’m not here to say “all hail Asians”. I’m just saying that currently, right now, there is reverse discrimination. Yes, I completely agree that URMs used to be discriminated against, so it was very reasonable to come up with these rules and stipulations, but I think they took it a bit too far. Just as the URMs want equal opportunities, us Asians want equal opportunities. </p>

<p>To even consider such an uncontrollable factor like the color of anybody’s skin is blasphemous to democracy itself. Whether the color of the skin be black, brown, white, etc., it shouldn’t matter! </p>

<p>I hope you can see where I am coming from. I’m not attacking you at all, and I actually agree with a lot about what you said, such as not being entitled to certain things, and colleges picking students who fit well into the university.</p>

<p>However, some things you said rub the wrong way against me. It has even been quoted that an admissions officer at a high caliber school takes off a hundred or so points off of the SAT just because the person is Asian, and adds a couple hundred for some URMs, such as blacks. The difference ends up being very significant.</p>

<p>Also, when was I “shutting down the brain to reasonable discussion and debate and refusing to be persuadable”? That was my first post on here. You can’t determine who I am and what my future actions will be! That is just being rude. </p>

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<p>So an elite university with a class profile that shows that Asians make up 40% of the class when they are 3% of the population are suffering from reverse discrimination because URMs (in particular Black people) make up 5%-8% of the class even though they are 13% of the population.</p>

<p>This is the same as if Warren Buffet was complaining about the cost of buying private islands. Not many regular people can empathize.</p>

<p>Also, there is always a assumption which is based on the racism of those who make it that their slot was lost due to affirmative action that benefitted a urm. Yet, it is quite possible that high stat Asians are losing out to whites, internationals and middle easterners.</p>

<p>Somehow, my kid who scored a 2250, graduated in the top 1% and scored in the 1%ile of every state administered exam since elementary school as well excelled and won several and various state-wide competitions and competed and placed on a national level in different competitions, beating many white and Asian kids in the process, is somehow lumped into the pile of kids who got a boost solely based on race and doesn’t really belong.</p>

<p>Whatever…</p>

<p>Part of the reason she wins is because she is a fierce competitor & natural leader that nobody ever expects or sees coming. I’ve seen her do it over and over again. So keeping thinking like you think. </p>

<p>But, I’d encourage you to open your mind. No admissions decision is based on race because that is currently illegal. It’s based on the value you bring beyond being smart. Even then, you may bring great value however, space is extremely limited. 1200 slots for 40,000 applicants. The odds are that many excellent candidates will be rejected. If your quantitative skills are good enough to get accepted, then you should know that you are still more than likely to be rejected.</p>

<p>I have no political axe to grind. I think that an admissions process that relies solely on stats and scores is as foolish as one based solely on race. People always love the metric that they can win on but even that is not a guarantee. Can you really win on your own criteria or do you just think you can. Hmmmm.</p>

<p>Maybe a more articulate case for your position would prove your criteria to be superior. I’m open to being persuaded.</p>

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<p>What does “reverse discrimination” mean? People are either discriminated against or they’re not. </p>

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<p>@austinmshauri Reverse discrimination is when you intend to prevent discrimination for one group, but in that process, actually end up discriminating another group. </p>

<p>@madaboutx Let me build off of what you stated first: the Warren Buffet example. As far as I comprehended, you are comparing Warren Buffet to the Asian population, and the others to black people. This is wrong on so many levels. He earned his spot to say that and much more, just as Asians coincidentally earned their spots to come in where they are, and why would it matter if the general public cannot empathize with him? If there is something wrong in the system that affects him, he has all the rights to fight against it. I’m not saying this to glorify Asians. I am saying this to show you that people earn their value. To brand a person based on his race is foolish. It sounds like you are saying that since you are black, you deserve to get more representation, regardless of what your actual accomplishments. </p>

<p>As far as I am concerned, I do not even want to see any statistics whatsoever, but since you brought it up, the only school I know of that has a significant number of Asians in Caltech, according to a statistical graph on Asian population percentages for colleges. Most of the people in those top colleges are actually white. </p>

<p>In addition, I think you might find this piece pretty enlightening. The discrimination against Asians in college admissions processes regarding Asian quotas is comparable to the discrimination Jewish people had in the 1920s and 1930s with Jewish quotas in elite colleges. At the time, nobody wanted to agree to it, but now, it is a widely accepted fact. Whether you want to accept it or not, it is happening, and I am just expressing my dislike for that. </p>

<p>When did I ever say that the admissions process is based solely on numbers? Never. You are pulling words out of my mouth to try and prove a point. I thought I even implied that the college process is pretty holistic by agreeing with you on my last post. Let my try putting this in a different way to you. Answer these few questions truthfully in your own head, and you can post it here if you feel like it. </p>

<p>1) Are you going to be honest to yourself here?
2) What are the two most important parts of your application?
3) How many Asians who are not legacy, recruited athletes, or anything else “special”, have you heard of who got into a top-20 school with a 2000 SAT?
4) How many URMs who are not legacy, recruited athletes, or anything else “special”, have you heard of who got into a top-20 school with a 2000 SAT?
5) Imagine a situation wherein I am Asian, and someone else were a URM. Now, both of us have the exact same stats, same activities, and leadership positions and all that other good stuff. What’s more, we both have equally splendid essays that the admissions officers liked equally. There is one spot left, only one. Who do you think they will pick, and why?</p>

<p>I have another thing to say if you are not yet convinced. Harvard has recently been criticized for having a certain quota for accepting Asian students. Oh, my! I wonder why one of the premier institutes of learning would ever do such a thing as limit the number of students accepted based on ethnicity in such a wonderfully nondiscriminatory world!</p>

<p>I am, too, open to persuasion. In fact, I will be grateful to you if you could just convince me that ethnicity is not at all a factor in college admittance processes.</p>

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<p>@Iamthegoat, did you see this article:</p>

<p><a href=“Programmer privilege: As an Asian male computer science major, everyone gave me the benefit of the doubt.”>http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2014/01/programmer_privilege_as_an_asian_male_computer_science_major_everyone_gave.2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>On Slate.com. It touches on the some of the racial stereotypes that you imply exist. As you are no doubt aware, at many campuses asians are represented in greater concentrations than they occur in the general population. In other words, the acceptance rate for asians is currently greater than the average acceptance rate, just as it is for URMs. Do you believe it is because asians, as a race, are superior than the average applicant, and should be admitted at even greater percentages?</p>

<p>There are other things besides SAT scores (you are using 2000 as an iconic threshold of some sort to characterize candidates) that matter to a learning experience, a diversified campus which speaks of divergent worldviews is one example.</p>

<p>In addition to that, the privilege as described in the referenced Slate article and also reinforced in books by Malcolm Gladwell, for example, suggests that the depth and richness of experience for some populations is enhanced beyond their native capability. Simply put, if you put handicaps on some and enhancements on others, and then stand at the finish line and make assessments, those with the enhancements will outperform those with the handicaps. Think of a barefoot runner wearing wrist and ankle weights racing someone with high-technology running shoes. Assessing at the finish line would not give a fair comparison.</p>

<p>So, if your metric is diversity of worldviews and life experiences while still having the ability to compete at the level required to succeed at the school, you may have a different take on this. If you are the one feeling like the door is being cracked shut to your “people”- whether by race, gender, national origin, etc., you may feel that “stats,” or my analogy of “assessment at the finish line”, should be the metric for admissions.</p>

<p>In addition, there is the argument of “academic reparations” for past insult to specific communities.</p>

<p>I think it is a complex landscape, and is not a simple issue of comparative evaluation of objective measures.</p>

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<p>I didn’t compare Warren Buffet to Asains. I compared the similarities between the complaints if we’re to complain in such a way. You still hold to the fallacy though that admissions is earned. If I earn something, it’s mine and I don’t have to apply to get it. The whole process undermines the notion that merit is determiner of who gets in and who doesn’t. This makes the conversation too circular. I deal with the reality of it and many people hold to fantasy of how they think it ought to be. The funny thing is that most people who hold these fantasies would be accepted if their fantasy of how it ought to be were real.</p>

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<p>And going to point 5 above. Imagine two spots left and two students with the exact same stats are going for it. One is Asian and the other is a white. Uh oh! Who’s taking who’s spot? Imagine two Asians going head to head. Do these things never happen. Do the 10-20% of the student body that are URMs really take all the spots away from deserving non-urms? Are urms the only ones taking spots away from people? It doesn’t seem like there are enough in the applicant pool to do that but ok.</p>

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<p>@Madaboutx‌ So you are saying that I should throw away my disliking for this obviously unequal treatment? I don’t think you properly understood, or you feel that different skin-colored people deserve different things. I never said that certain people “earned” anything. I’m saying that there is discrimination in this process, and that discrimination hurts Asians. I do notice one thing, though. Every single time, you have cleverly avoided this, or tried to transform it into a different, irrelevant topic. I never ever said anything about merit being the determining factor for anyone. </p>

<p>Am I wrong in believing that Asians have lower chances of acceptance just because they are of different ethnicity? Please answer this question, and this one alone, as I feel we have both been beating around the bush for far too long. </p>

<p>Also, you made me have quite a laugh when he mentioned a white guy instead of the URM. So white vs asian? White is given priority. I’m starting to feel that you are not trying to actually prolong this debate, but rather are quite uninformed about a multitude of things regarding this topic. It really is not your fault, and I’m not holding anything against you, but you might want to do a bit more research before you say things like that; you undermined your own stance on this topic. </p>

<p>@ItsJustSchool‌ I really respect this, and am willing to read it at a later time. Thank you for showing this to me. However, I just want to remark that my whole stance roots itself in the belief that race or ethnicity as a whole should be insignificant. I am not saying that certain races are taking away opportunities from me. That’s a futile attempt. I am merely stating and expressing my sadness that such a thing as skin color is being used in the admissions process, regardless of how significant or insignificant it is.</p>

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<p>It is an inflammatory statement, a rude statement and not true. But for those who are so outraged about it, the reason is there because being a URM,with AAs being one such category, it does give a student an admissions boost It’s like saying someone got in because s/he’s a legacy, has a donor/development parent/connections, is a a recruited athlete., is in any category that gives an admiissions boost. That there are URMs in the URM pool who would have been accepted regardless of whether they were in the general pool with race not identified at all, is true, but it’s also a fact that without such a pool, a number of those in it would not have been accepted. The category,pool for admissions does exist for a reason, which is to give special consideration to a group that a college wants. That there is any such pool does mean that a commensurate number of spaces are no longer available for those who are not specially flagged for admissions. </p>

<p>My son was looking at Naviance points from his school, and was struck by how many outlier points were of URMs. By Outlier, I mean with not has high test scores and grade as the clustered accepts, and in many cases, with no one else accepted around that point. For the last few years, we can even id who those were. At some schools they are URM coded so one can see this very, very clearly </p>

<p>So that is why the statement exists. There are athletes already “accepted” to their schools, some ivy and other higly selective school and yes, there is no question that the accepts are because they’re athletes. The black athletes are not so pulled out as “got in because they 're black” , but those who do get accepted with outlier stats and no other special stauts will get that comment.</p>

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<p>I’ll more directly answer. When 3% of the population has such a disproportionately high percentage in a class at top schools, I dont believe they have lower chances than others at all. </p>

<p>The merit or earned thing is something I bring up because that means that every applicant is chosen, selected or hand picked by other people who must ‘like’ that applicant and ‘feel’ that that student would be an asset to the school and the school an asset to the student. They also ‘believe’ that student is really passionate about them and someone is passionate that student. A committee is not making a decision based on objective criteria. They are selecting from among many student that could go on to be great one day. And race is such a small part of it to ensure that they have a student body that represents the world community and can participate in the tapestry of university life that exists on campus. All schools do that. </p>

<p>At one university, their two oboists graduated and one administrator announced that they were in need of oboist applicants. The student body should also reflect campus life and feed the organizations that exist on campus. But that’s slelective. </p>

<p>I hear what your saying but maybe I’ve settled into the idea that people are people. People are very discriminating. They don’t marry just anyone, race, religion, creed, ethnicity and sexual orientation is discriminated against everyday when people get married to their dream person. Why do so many Asians only marry Asians? And that applies to most people since very few marry outside of race. Is that not a discriminatory choice? It’s life. Colleges don’t marry students but they are made up of people making decisions using the best objective material at the time and yet the process still has a high element of selectivity involved.</p>

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<p>@Madaboutx Comparing the 3% population to the higher representation in colleges is not a proper way to assess the point of them having lower chances. It is probably more of a cultural thing for Asians to be motivated to do better, as most of them came very recently from foreign countries, looking for better opportunities in the USA for their children, much like my own family. Since there is the direct pressure to perform better (because that’s why many families even come here in the first place), more of them probably get into better colleges. While this theory isn’t perfect, I believe it has at least some merit to it. </p>

<p>I understand what you mean about diversity, though. trying to create a place wherein there are many different people of many different backgrounds. This is the kind of place I want to go to, mingling with people that have a lot more to share than a people from a single community. I really want to go to that sort of place. After all, I believe that most of the highly regarded schools are pretty attractive, and the diverseness really plays an important role in that like-ability. As much as I want to like that, I am conflicted because there is clear discrimination against students who clearly just don’t deserve it. I want there to be more equality. I guess this is the “humanist” inside me that is telling me that such a thing is wrong. </p>

<p>Also, I’m sorry if I offended anyone here. I didn’t ever mean to say that URMs get in only because of their skin color. I don’t know if I inadvertently hinted towards that in anything I said. I did not mean to say that URMs are taking away spots from others or anything. That sounds like racial bigotry, and I want none of that. I only used URMs as a reference to bring up my points about ORMs. If such a practice, relying even remotely on skin color, were happening with any group, regardless of ORM, URM, etc. I would react in the same, unhappy manner. </p>

<p>I guess there has to be some give and some take, in order to maintain diversity. Such is life. I will just have to accept the fact this this is a necessary thing. However, somewhere, deep in my heart, this will pluck the strings of my conscience, whispering to me that something has to be done about the discrimination…</p>