<p>The number of US students choosing international colleges doesn’t come close to balancing the number of international students choosing US schools. And when even state universities – with charters saying they exist primarily to educate the students of their state who pay taxes – are increasing the percentage of international students they admit, more and more US students get shut out. </p>
<p>Hunt I agree. Parents with college degrees typically have children who are more likely to attend college. 30 years ago I believe about half the number of people had college degrees as they do today. You see the results in suburban HSs where the number of children taking AP classes and advanced math courses has skyrocketed. I believe the top 10,000 30 years ago is the top 100,000 today. The elite universities cannot handle all the students qualified to attend them so you see many 2nd tier privates, state flagships and even some secondary state schools attempting to get the overflow. There has been a proliferation of honors colleges, increased funding for stem students and a general increase in the quality of students at many universities. 40 years ago when I was applying to colleges my state flagship Ohio State was considered easy to get into. The average ACT was 21. Today it’s around 27. When I was in HS the top math class I could take was Advanced Math/Trigonometry. My daughter finished Calc B/C as a junior.</p>
<p>Oh how things have changed. Look below for 2006 colleges’ acceptance rate. HYPSM acceptance rates even back then were really low.</p>
<p><a href=“College acceptance rates: How many get in? - USATODAY.com”>http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-11-02-collegerates_x.htm</a></p>
<p>Here’s the data for the USNWR Top 25 (First value is 2006, Second is 2013). Look at Chicago from 40% to 8.8%, NU from 33.3% to 13.9% and Vanderbilt from 38.3% to 11.97%. Some remained relatively constant (7% or less change): HYPMS, Columbia, WUSTL, Rice, Georgetown, UCB, UCLA, USC.</p>
<p>School 2006 2013 Change
Princeton 12.70 7.29 5.41
Harvard 10.40 5.79 4.61
Yale 11.40 6.72 4.68
Columbia 13.20 6.89 6.31
Stanford 13.00 5.69 7.31
Chicago 40.00 8.80 31.2
Duke 21.40 11.58 9.82
MIT 15.90 8.20 7.7
UPenn 21.20 12.10 9.1
CalTech - 10.55 -
Dartmouth 18.50 10.05 8.45
JHU 30.70 16.89 13.81
Nortwestern 33.30 13.90 19.4
Brown 16.40 9.16 7.24
WUSTL 22.20 15.01 7.19
Cornell 29.40 15.15 14.25
Vanderbilt 38.30 11.97 26.33
Rice 22.20 16.56 5.64
NotreDame 30.40 22.30 8.1
Emory 42.00 25.95 16.05
Georgetown 21.90 16.60 5.3
Berkeley 23.90 20.83 3.07
CMU 41.60 27.77 13.83
UCLA 23.50 20.10 3.4
USC 27.00 19.68 7.32
UVA 38.90 28.90 10
WakeForest 46.80 31.23 15.57</p>
<p>Thanks for the data 2018dad. This is what I meant. It’s not just the tippy top where admissions are more difficult. Add in that only 60 some colleges claim to meet full need and most of them have admission rates now below 30% and it’s tough for a smart kid from a low-to-middle income family to find that “excellent option”. I do believe they exist, but especially on the LAC front it’s going to require more digging and creative thought than it did even 5 years ago. My youngest kid did get merit money at several LACs, in fact the largest awards those schools granted, and the remaining bill was twice what a full need school expected from us. That, to me, was the biggest pressure this last round – finding admissions safeties that would also be financial safeties, when the desire was for a LAC setting, for a highly qualified but unhooked student.</p>
<p>2018Dad’s numbers are sobering. A lot of D’s favorites are on there, and I can see most going from “reasonable reach” to “lottery” if the trend continues through next year. </p>
<p>The whole LAC landscape is one that I’m not that familiar with since, for her own reasons, D has decided that’s not the route she wants to go. (I working on changing her mind, though!) </p>
<p>It looks like 1) people looked west, outside the NE and the Ivies, and found CMU, WUSTL and Northwestern in particular; and 2) the aggressive marketing campaigns by Chicago, and Vanderbilt have definitely paid off. I suspect schools in the South will be “discovered” next, so watch out for Emory and Wake Forest. Their acceptance rates may plummet even more as they get more applications (kids thinking they have a better chance there than at say Duke or Vanderbilt)</p>
<p>(now looking for schools in the southwest…)</p>
<p>Someone should put RPI on that list - it’s another one that has a huge shift in acceptance rate dating back to the year it was dubbed one of the “New Ivies”.</p>
<p>@my3girls The thing is, much of what made Harvard, Yale etc. special are the students that attended. Not only have the acceptance rates gone down at many of the 2nd tier universities but the students that are accepted typically are higher performing than they were as well. I think you will find that academically and socially many of the “2nd tier” schools will be just as rigorous and well rounded as Harvard and company.</p>
<p>I just feel like saying something positive about all this… which does not of course remove the trauma from individual students or families. I was truly one of those elitist parent snobs who never thought I would consider schools for my kids at the “levels” the wound up at (U.Md. College Park and RIT) (I went to MIT and DH NYU).</p>
<p>But the world really is different, and that it is harder to get into the “top” schools is the least of it. Much of the resources I had available to me at MIT are widely and freely available to everyone – if they go and seek it! Free classes on line – the very professors who were beacons for me, their lectures that thrilled me are all there free on line! And schools like RIT, or Northeaster, that we used to MAKE FUN of – those trade schools, those little schools for mechanics, not scientists, well… the brilliance and energy has trickled down.</p>
<p>RIT was 900000% more amazing in 2012 when we visited than when I visited in 1975. My brilliant mathematician son is having a great time. Yes, he complains there is not enough theoretical math, but he will get what he needs to as an undergraduate…and he had issues in HS that honestly meant he was not ready for a school with a <10% acceptance rate. And that old commuter/regional school? His girlfriend is from China, by way of Chicago. It’s 2014, he’s on e-gaming teams with people from all over. Everything is state of the art. </p>
<p>(Pretend there is a hyperlink here to an entire essay also on how the entire world has changed, jobs, opportunities, hopes, satisfaction, economies…)</p>
<p>Just wipe your mind clean of anything you every knew or thought about colleges and start from scratch. There are thousands of colleges. There are a handful that have a lot of prestige, a few thousand go to them who have superb credentials and excellent luck, and then many other colleges that are terrific.</p>
<p>Thanks for those stats @2018dad. Just want to emphasize that the third column is the raw percentage point change, which is different from the percentage change.</p>
<p>Take the school listed first, Princeton. It went from 12.7% to 7.29%. That is a change of 5.41 percentage points. If my reasoning is correct, that means Princeton is now 42.5% tougher, statistically, to get admitted to. (5.41/12.7) Is my math right? </p>
<p>@fenwaypark Ouch…you’re right! </p>
<p>@fenwaypark
Thanks for clarifying that.</p>
<p>According to USNWR, There are now 40% more international students studying in the U.S. than there were 10 years ago. I don’t know the percentage increase in applications, but I would think that it’s more than 40%.</p>
<p>The demographic has shifted toward Asia, which is understandable since high achieving Asians have fewer options at home.
<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2013/11/11/us-sees-record-number-of-international-college-students”>http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2013/11/11/us-sees-record-number-of-international-college-students</a></p>
<p>It’s interesting to note that a few years back the U.S. State Department launched a campaign through Education USA to help foreign nationals apply to American universities. </p>
<p>This is the website from the U.S. Embassy in my host country. You’ll find the same in another 169 countries. </p>
<p><a href=“http://jakarta.usembassy.gov/study/study-advising.html”>http://jakarta.usembassy.gov/study/study-advising.html</a></p>
<p>The theory is that education is America’s strongest and most universally valuable export. I agree with this and I’m happy to see capable Indonesians get a shot at quality education; but after seeing those acceptance percentages posted by @2018dad, I wonder if it is sustainable.</p>
<p>I’m actually amazed that U of Chicago had a 40% admit rate as recently as 2006! </p>
<p>Is this NYT article already being discussed elsewhere on CC? <a href=“Best, Brightest and Rejected: Elite Colleges Turn Away Up to 95% - The New York Times”>Best, Brightest and Rejected: Elite Colleges Turn Away Up to 95% - The New York Times;
<p>My oldest graduated HS in ’ 06 , middle '08 and my youngest will graduate next year. I see a big change in the school that my youngest has at the top of her list, which happens to be middle daughter’s undergrad school. It was competitive then , but a lot more so now.
It wouldn’t be such a concern if she had more schools from which to choose for her intended major. There are few schools in our region of the mid-Atlantic to Northeast that offer it. Her SATs were above avg , but not outstanding. I am hoping that her being a legacy applicant ( and being granted an interview because of this ) will make her standout and they will look beyond the numbers. She will not be competing with international applicants , but I have no idea how many students apply to the program she will major in</p>
<p>Wow, I am surprised to see that web page @momrath posted with free admissions counseling services for international students. Not that I don’t want international students to have the opportunity to study here -in fact my D is absolutely thrilled by the large percentage of internationals at her college: yay diversity!- but it makes me kind of sad that those kids get that service while kids here do not. If the list of free services is realistic, it’s better than what the GC at the local high school provides. Part of me feels a little uncomfortable reading about that when I’m also reading threads on here about brilliant hard-working (domestic) kids getting shut out of the colleges they applied to. On the one hand, diversity is great, and I am glad that intn’l kids who do not otherwise have the chance at a high-quality education can get one, but… if this is mainly a BUSINESS decision (income from full-pay internationals) then it makes me worry.</p>
<p>I found this article on the Chicaco Maroon website: <a href=“Architect Viñoly’s new GSB designed with eye to detail – Chicago Maroon”>Architect Viñoly’s new GSB designed with eye to detail – Chicago Maroon;
<p>On the sidebar today, I see the titles of two previous articles: “Admissions Yield for 2012 hits 39 Percent,” and “Class of '17 Yield Above 50 Percent.” Now, the University of Chicago apparently made changes in their admissions process–moving to a more holistic model, iirc. It was controversial at the time, but it seems to be popular, judging by the steadily improving yield rate.</p>
<p>As the Common App has increased the number of applicants, the colleges have had to become better at yielding accepted students. Somehow they are predicting which students will accept the offer of admission. This decreases the rate for the next year’s applicants, because the admissions teams must pay attention to yield.</p>
<p>It could be that students with “perfect” records are facing odd outcomes because their ultimate admissions preference are harder to predict.</p>
<p>^^Following this line of thought, which sounds reasonable enough, would we conclude that applicants have a more difficult time getting accepted at Elite Schools A, B, and C if they list on their applications that their parents graduated from Elite School D?</p>
<p>What’s your solution? Lie on the application, or refuse to let your child apply to schools he really likes? I don’t think either’s a real option. </p>
<p>I’ve read on CC that Harvard admits Yale and Princeton legacies at rates only slightly lower than its own legacies. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/1015673-legacy-acceptance-rate.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/1015673-legacy-acceptance-rate.html</a>. </p>
<p>I think colleges have gotten better at predicting students’ interest. I don’t know how. But with 20 X as many applicants applying as they have spots, they have to do something. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>??? No problem stated or suggested. Just trying to get folks’ opinions. That thread you linked is about four years old, which amounts to ancient history in the current acceptance rate environment. Maybe others can help.</p>