Thinking about this...

Parents Forum
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<p>Parentny, Encomium knows how to interpret parent's statements. He is one of the most prolific posters, and rest assured that he knows how to take ... and dole out criticisms. The beauty of this board is that allows people to be direct without becoming malicious. </p>

<p>Encomium, thank you for taking the time to post your epiphany. While it is not as graphic as the shower one, I found it very helpful because it reinforces that, for college applications, there is no substitute for individuality. Simply stated, you did what you had to do to convey YOUR most enticing and compelling image. This was obviously sufficient to be recognized by the adcoms at every school. While what worked for you may not necessarily work for a different student, it is nonetheless very valuable, especially for people who can read between the lines. </p>

<p>PS Congrats on your successes. You did amazingly well.<br>
PPS Do you still read the Oxford lists of words? :)</p>

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<p>NSM, you're far too idealistic</p>

<p>Kids want to get into good schools and will often sacrifice pleasure for the end result--that is sometimes do extracurriculars they don't love. Many people in the work force do unpleasant things to get ahead. It's not the uncommon.</p>

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<p>Lol xiggi! You have an AMAZING memory!</p>

<p>No i do not read them, haha, but I enjoyed them at the time.</p>

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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>Thanks for pointing out the obivious. Duh! I need a dose too. I do not know you much but you seems very wise. Are you a high school kid or in college?</p>

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<p>"ids want to get into good schools and will often sacrifice pleasure for the end result--that is sometimes do extracurriculars they don't love."</p>

<p>Sure, and when it comes to my alma mater, lots of those kids don't get in because when they interview, they can't show real interest and pasison in those ECs. They get bypassed by the students who did pursue ECs that they truly cared about. It is very easy in an interview to tell the difference between students who pursued ECs (and academics for that matter) that they cared about and those who did ECs and academics only in hopes of getting into a top college.</p>

<p>When it comes to academics, of course students aren't expected to show deep love for all of their courses. If they can't, though, demonstrate a passion for any academic work, they don't sound like a student who'll end up with an acceptance by my college. Getting straight As does not equal passion.</p>

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<p>"ECs are not that important. As long as you have something you're dedicated to, you should do fine. You don't have to be doing something from 2-6 every day."</p>

<p>I agree with the last sentence. I disagree with the first sentence. ECs are important. Being important, however, doesn't mean that one has to do them 20 hours a week. Too many students erroneously think that colleges measure passion and interest by the hours spent on an EC. Impact -- on you and on the EC -- is more important than time spent.</p>

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<p>encomium that depends on what you mean by hook. My son has had a 10-year -long love affair for classical music, taken every music theory course he could, reads about composers, practices hours a day, plays chamber music with other musicians his age, has played a concerto with an orchestra and on and on. Is this a hook?? I don't know. Of course according to Northstarmom, one must play like Yo Yo Ma for it to be a hook at a top school, despite the fact that his musical collaborators are in Harvard and Yale because music was their hooks. Oh well. But in any case my son was extremely fortunate to do something he loves and to have a passion for it. He didn't live his life to have things to put on a college application. And despite all this he managed to have lots of friends and lots of fun.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Why are parents attacking this kid? he did not say he is the best. He just stated his accomplishments and said like a 18 year old few statement. Ignore his comments if you do not agree.</p>

<p>Sybie I have great respect for you. You are better than this. It is uncalled "If you compare your self to others, you may become vain and bitter: for always there willbe greater and lesser persons than yourself" Let the kid teach me atleast few things I am not aware about. At least I did not see that he said he is the best.</p>

<p>I am sure his statement does not tell us all. He may be wrong in his assumptions. But let him say few sentences. This is what I call a real diversity in opinions which is paramount in colleges. Not by colors or race. This opinion diversity is very important to me.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Parentny,</p>

<p>Its MHO that no one is attacking Encomium, as this is just what it is- an exchange of opinions. I think that it is great that he has been gracious enough to share his experience with us, and there is something to be learned, however his experience will not be yours. based on the answers he has given his experience is different from your kids, and mine. It is not to say that they can't or won't achieve the same thing by by the same token, his experience cannot nor should it be set in stone. Someone will read this thread and if they did not have his out come they will be player hating on him for no good reason and that's not fair to him either.. </p>

<p>There are a range of SAT scores, grades, experiences and other factors that makes up Yale's admitted class.</p>

<p>In the college process everyone is going to have their own race for which the course may not be the same for any 2 students. Sometimes, you gotta be like a horse and wear blinders.</p>

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<p>"encomium that depends on what you mean by hook. My son has had a 10-year -long love affair for classical music, taken every music theory course he could, reads about composers, practices hours a day, plays chamber music with other musicians his age, has played a concerto with an orchestra and on and on. Is this a hook?? I don't know. "</p>

<p>It could help him get into a college that has a dearth of students with that kind of music background. One can't, though, count on it to get him into places like HPYS for which his kind of background is not particularly unusual.</p>

<p>Just because a student pursues a passion in depth and with honors doesn't mean that a student will be guaranteed admission to the college of his/her choice -- even if that student also has stellar grades and scores.</p>

<p>Some students will manage to get into places like HPYS with ECs similar to your son's. However, all such students will not get in even though their achievements are very impressive and unusual when they are compared to the general population of college-bound high school seniors.</p>

<p>Does that mean that the student wasted their time in pursuing their passion? No. Presumably they got pleasure, personal growth, skills, etc. out of the activity, and their investment in that activity will provide them with a lifetime of pleasure and appreciation of music.</p>

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<p>Encomium, I must congratulate you! That is an awesome outcome for sure. I think it is interesting to read your story but I would be careful to generalize from your story because I really think each situation and applicant is different. You could say high test scores and rank matter (they do) but then there are kids who were shut out who had these. I could go on about the other points but simply saying it is hard to make a generalization. I am not clear what you are saying your "hook" was or whatever, but there must have been something special about you....a particular interest or you mentioned a community service type activity. Not saying that THAT got you in but I think you were about more than just your stats. You are a person and something came across on your application beyond your stellar stats. </p>

<p>Anyway, I am mostly posting to not only congratulate you but since you referred to my kids. I can't agree with you on some of what you wrote. </p>

<p>You refer to ECs as things kids are choosing to do in ninth grade to look good for college because they "have to". All I can say is that this is the opposite extreme from my kids' point of view and the lives they have led. Neither of my kids started ANY new ECs once in high school. They both were involved in certain interest areas from a young age. Secondly, their passion for these activities meant they would NOT BE HAPPY if they were not doing them. They would have done them had they NEVER EVER gone to college. They love these activities and plan to continue doing them IN college. The idea of building a resume of ECs never occurred to them in other words. Maybe their EC activities helped them on their applications, maybe they didn't. We don't much care cause they did 'em cause they wanted to. I happen to think (since I do interview college applicants), if I were reading their application or interviewing them, I would find it interesting to learn of their lifelong passions and their achievements in those areas because it is a part of who they are. You wrote: "(students) sometimes do extracurriculars they don't love. Many people in the work force do unpleasant things to get ahead." I would agree that sometimes kids try to do their very best at ACADEMICS because they have long range goals to go to college some day and might strive to do well in a subject they don't love too much because of college but I know in the case of ECs, my own kids never did ECs they did not LOVE and never did them to get "ahead". I can't explain that any better but trust me on that account.</p>

<p>Northstarmom wrote: "1. In general, when it comes to top colleges, students have been pursuing their passions for a long time. It didn't start in 9th grade. Their pursuing their passions had nothing to do with college, everything to do with their simply liking to do some things.</p>

<ol>
<li>For students who don't have a passion in 9th grade (the majority of students), it's a good idea to try a variety of things to find out what they like and what they are good at. When they find that they really like an activity, they should continue to pursue it, using their creativity, and they should also look for ways to take leadership in that activity."</li>
</ol>

<p>I wholeheartedly agree with those statements from my own kids' experiences. Again, like NSM, just talking ECs now. With regard to certain subjects, yes, sometimes kids have to take core subjects they do not love and strive to get a high grade as it is part of the larger goal of going to college and you need that to get in. For instance, my younger child could not care less about math and will never use math in her college years (going for a BFA in musical theater) but she has an apptitude for math, accelerated two years ahead of her grade and is in AP Calculus getting an A+ though hates having to do it but knows she needs a strong academic record to get into some colleges. I don't see that kind of thinking, however, entering into ANY of her EC choices. </p>

<p>By the way, you can be a very strong student ....hardest classes, straight As, valedictorian....as one of my kids was, AND also WANT to pursue an active EC lifestyle because you would not be happy just hanging out or just focusing on academics. Some kids truly LOVE their activities and would not have it any other way. You might not feel that way and that is truly fine. You might know kids who accrued ECs to build college resumes. But that kind of thinking is foreign from my own kids' experiences. One of my kids is so passionate about her ECs that it is turning out she is going to study her EC areas as her college major now! Her nursery school report card which was a narrative spoke of her doing this some day and believe me, we weren't thinking of college when she was four years old! </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, I believe I read somewhere that you were an adcomm. So I have a question for you.</p>

<p>My son goes to a very competitive and rigorous parochial school. He is in school 9.5 hours a day. He has time to participate in one sports team (one weeknight a week, 6-9:30 PM, and 4 hours each weekend), and one "cerebral" club (a second weeknight a week, and a few hours on occasional weekends)</p>

<p>I see on these boards that kids are spending a significant amount of time pursuing activities outside of school.</p>

<p>What happens in the case of a kid where school takes up so much of his time that there is barely any time for homework, let alone activities outside of school? There are nights when my son is up until past midnight doing homework, and its not because he was playing video games for hours on end.</p>

<p>My son's school feeds the kids into about 30 colleges. I think that these colleges are well aware of the rigor of his curriculum, since his school has a tremendous track record of placing kids into top universities. Still, as things get more competitive, I wonder.</p>

<p>So my question is, what is process when school work is a kid's violin/football/debating?</p>

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<p>I'd like to second Enc's theory. I have pretty amazing ECs - I train with a Metropolitan opera veteran, was invited to a summer program run by some Met/Juilliard coaches and diction instructors, won various awards at the state level; am first author of original, novel research in a lab at Yale, have been invited to one Yale-wide symposium to present, two statewide symposia, and to a national meeting with 10k+ professionals in the scientific area, and wrote my first grant (which was funded) at age 16; I single-handedly revived and built up the school newspaper, a 5-time-a-year publication, to a monthly paper, and was ED-in-Chief for 2 years, first in my school to earn such an honor. Other things included multiple language awards, multiple lead roles in various school productions, and some speech & debate trophies. I had the ECs needed to get into any school in the country. </p>

<p>But here are my stats:</p>

<p>SAT: 1450 SAT II: 800 writing; 690 mathIC; 650 MBio
GPA: 3.7 UW 9-11 grade, As/Cs 12th
Courses: AP everything. Garnered 4s on Bio and US History grade 11. This year taking AP French, AP Lit, AP Chem, AP Calc BC. I'm sure you can guess where I made the Cs.<br>
Rank: 11/500</p>

<p>...you can see where I'm going with this. The truth is out - my scores are decent-ish, but not oustanding. My grades were ok before this year, but this year was rough. I'm sure it didn't shine through to the adcoms at schools X, Y, and Z that I was having issues and blah blah blah. Really, the grades this year did not reflect my grades from the rest of highschool, and that must have been bizarre, but they were still inexcusable. And, IMO, that's what kept me out of the 9 schools that rejected me and the 5 that waitlisted me. Michigan didn't request my midyear report. Then again, neither did Berkeley, so no one knows how I didn't get in there, esp. because my dad is a Berkeley alum. </p>

<p>Anyway. </p>

<p>Work really hard in high school and, as the adults say, "take up a hobby." But one or the other exclusively will not do you any good.</p>

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<p>"my scores are decent-ish, but not oustanding. "</p>

<p>Your ECs are amazing and your scores scores are outstanding when compared with those of students from across the country. Where it is that your scores look "decent-ish" is when they are compared to those of students applying to HPYS, particularly students from places like New England, where you live.</p>

<p>Literally, if you lived in a place like the Midwest , Northwest, South or most of the Southwest, you'd stand out overall as an amazing candidate for virtually any college in the country. It's because of where you live that it was hard for you to stand out in the admissions pools of most of the colleges that you applied to.</p>

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<p>FrecklyBecky, I know I have not posted to you on your thread but let me tell you that my heart goes out to you because in my opinion, you appear to be a fantastic applicant to any college. I believe you still have some fine choices that you did get into, thankfully, but just not exactly what you had hoped for. I hope you are not thinking that oh, my ECs did not matter cause look what happened to me. I think your ECs and achievements in those areas did matter and enhanced your overall application. It is hard to pinpoint a "reason" for not being accepted when you are talking highly selective colleges. Unfortunately there are too many wonderful FrecklyBecky's out there (though YOU do seem to be a unique wonderful one) and who can say why a slot did not come your way at a particular school. Also there are the unknown parts like recs and essays that we are not seeing here. But anyway, just to assure you, I have a kid whose test scores were not that much higher than yours and she did get into almost all her selective schools (not Yale either though!). Admittedly her GPA and rank were higher but still, you are not so far off of it that it made that much of a difference. I have no idea if anything is wrong with your profile...it is more a bit of that you did not fit a slot in certain colleges. I would not regret any of your ECs as I think they DID mean something.....and actually the five schools that waitlisted you...that is an indication that you were "good enough" because usually the waitlist is made up of kids just as qualified as the admitted ones. Please get excited about the schools you did get into if you can and work on going after a first choice waitlist school if you desire. </p>

<p>There is no doubt that the high SATs and GPA and rank that Encomium mentions ARE important in elite college admissions. Nobody would argue that that was not correct. But as you know 1600 and vals still get denied at some schools. But usually they do get into at least one and so they do have more odds in their favor. Still I think elite schools like to see more than just th stellar grades, rank, and scores (agree you need 'em or ones just under that), but they look at the WHOLE package and usually that DOES include interests, activities and achievements outside the classroom. YOU are strong in that area, and don't doubt that they did not value that part of your application. But at top schools, a 3.7 is going to have less odds than a 4.0 but still won't knock you out of the running. You were on the cusp and luck did not get you into the gate on some of these schools....it got you close...on the waitlist at many...and I believe you are in at at least one selective college, so I hope you can explore that one and realize how great it will be this time next year. I wish you all the best. Believe in yourself because this outcome is NOT a testament to your abilities, talents or self worth. You seem outstanding to me!
Susan</p>

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<p>I am known locally as "Captain Obvious," so let me say that if one kid gets accepted at 9 (or 12) top schools while another with superficially similar stats and ECs is rejected by 10, there is something more than random chance and lotteries going on. It is certainly useful to read what worked for one person, even if it is not feasible to squeeze into that model. After all, not everyone can avoid B's and push SAT scores above 1550! </p>

<p>My personal suspicion is that the difference lies in the parts of the application we don't see, an essay or a recommendation that makes the reader think, "oh wow!" in one case, and "hmmmmmmmmm" in the other.</p>

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<p>Sjmom:</p>

<p>Thanks for the kind words, and welcome! Congratulations as well on great acceptances.</p>

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<p>Congratulations, EncomiumII, but beware of smugness. I'm reminded of a disagreeably pompous thread ("Here is what I have learned...") that was started by another wealthy poster, Ilcapo235, after his ED admission to Princeton.</p>

<p>Boasting does not become a Yalie. </p>

<p>
[quote]
"The mark of the man of the world is absence of pretension. He does not make a speech; he takes a low business-tone, avoids all brag, is nobody, dresses plainly, promises not at all, performs much, speaks in monosyllables, hugs his fact. He calls his employment by its lowest name, and so takes from evil tongues their sharpest weapon. His conversation clings to the weather and the news, yet he allows himself to be surprised into thought, and the unlocking of his learning and philosophy."</p>

<p>--Ralph Waldo Emerson

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>how am i being smug?</p>

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<p>Hmmmm....</p>

<p>"Well, I ended up proving nearly everyone wrong. I got into Yale, Brown, Columbia as a John Jay scholar, Dartmouth, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore as a Phillip Evans finalist, Wesleyan, and Bowdoin as a faculty scholar. </p>

<p>"My active, athletic, musically inclined, artisitically inclined friends were either flat out rejected or wait-listed at the above schools."</p>

<p>"Craft excellent essays. I KNOW my essays were good for a fact now, because in one of my admissions letters, the admissions officers specifically wrote about it as one of the strongest, most moving essays he has read." (I don't know how to break this to you, but once they admit you, admissions officers usually try to say something really nice . Yale admissions reps often add little handwritten notes.)</p>

<p>"Present your applications well! I deliberately chose my font, my paper, a special folder, a well-organized format---an overall aesthetically pleasing design."</p>

<p>"Are you a first generation college student?</p>

<p>nope, and i'm wealthy" </p>

<p>Not too humble, IMHO.</p>

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<p>Re: Above</p>

<p>I'm telling where I got into college and where my more extracurricularly inclined friends didn't to make the point that I knew how to play the admissions game. </p>

<p>The comments weren't from Yale and they weren't handwritten. They were in the text of one of my admissions letters, and they were VERY specific. I don't think the admissions officer would have bothered to take the time to write four-five sentences about my essay if it didn't really affect him. You're making assumptions and putting words in my mouth (about Yale writing a handwritten note). </p>

<p>What's wrong about giving tips on presentation? Font? paper? folder? What's wrong about that?!? I'm giving tips!</p>

<p>I said I was a first generation student who was wealthy because sybbie asked, implying that I might have had the poor/first gen hook. I didn't offer that information up without being asked.</p>

<p>Here's what I wrote in another thread:
**
That's what I did, and I did very well with admissions. I was not a National Merit scholar, I play no sports, I do no music, I have no national awards (regional though), I do no art, I do no student government. I have one achievement in community service that was enticing, I suppose, and my essays were very well developed. Is your son probably more intelligent, more talented than I am? Yes. </p>

<p>So don't feel down, it really came down to the admissions game. I would suggest, if you wish, to take a gap year and focus on creating some sort of hook for your applications. **</p>

<p>My point on all of this is not that i'm a better person, smarter, more talented, etc. It's that I knew how to play the game.</p>