Thinking about this...

Parents Forum
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<p>I was always told, by members on this board, by guidance counselors, by friends, etc., that the "way to get into college" was to pursue lots of extracurriculars--sports, music, art, student government, writing, etc. Well, in high school, I have a standard extracurricular profile I guess. I am member/president of a few high school clubs, I tutor, I babysit, and I have one community service organization that I am extremely dedicated to. But I know people extremely dedicated to other community service organizations as well. I have studied abroad, I like languages, and I have several academic awards on the regional level. But doing a little self-comparison here, I don't think I work any harder on a time-basis than someone who plays soccer, plays the alto sax in the wind ensemble, and works at the local supermarket. My involvement is just focused differently. I even have fun sometimes and watch movies, go out with friends, stay at home and read, or just do nothing. On the old CC I posted my ECs and stats and people told me I should be looking at schools outside of the top 25 because I just was not that impressive. I remember the thread distinctly, and I felt pretty devastated. </p>

<p>Well, I ended up proving nearly everyone wrong. I got into Yale, Brown, Columbia as a John Jay scholar, Dartmouth, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore as a Phillip Evans finalist, Wesleyan, and Bowdoin as a faculty scholar. </p>

<p>My active, athletic, musically inclined, artisitically inclined friends were either flat out rejected or wait-listed at the above schools.</p>

<p>My conclusions?</p>

<p>ECs are not that important. As long as you have something you're dedicated to, you should do fine. You don't have to be doing something from 2-6 every day. If you want to, that's fine. But there is far too much emphasis on ECs on this site.</p>

<p>Instead, I saw focus on four components:</p>

<p>-Obtain as near-perfect a GPA you can in a rigorous curriculum. Avoid Bs at all costs. Seriously. Try to get straight As. Be valedictorian. </p>

<p>-Obtain the highest possible SAT scores you can. It's amazing the difference I see between people with 1450s and 1580s. If you're white or asian, this is almost crucial. If you get a 1550 or below, retake. Also pay attention to the SAT II. A set of 1550+, 780+ scores is extremely desirable. </p>

<p>-Craft excellent essays. I KNOW my essays were good for a fact now, because in one of my admissions letters, the admissions officers specifically wrote about it as one of the strongest, most moving essays he has read. If you can make yourself stand out with an essay like that, you really have an asset. An essay can break you more than it can make you, but make sure you don't let 3/4 years of hard work go down the drain with a standard, boring, cliched essay. After I was deferred early decision from Princeton, I heavily revised my essays because I didn't feel like I could trust them at all. Thus my essays came out controlled and meaningful. </p>

<p>-Obtain a nurturing relationship with humanities teachers. I don't trust science and math teachers for recommendations. I got my recommendation for language and english teachers exclusively. They often have more to work with and are more experienced in writing letters, especially at public school. I worked hard in these classes and participated with thoughtful comments and made close, friend-like relationships with some of them. I'm sure they wrote excellent letters for me (I read one of them and it was great). </p>

<p>-Research the interview. If you're applying to Yale University, go to the ASC website to try to understand how they evaluate the interview. The interview is pretty crucial there. </p>

<p>Great essays and great recs can make the difference between wait-listed at 7 schools and accepted. SAT IIs all above 750 as opposed to 720, 730, 740 do the same. A class rank of 1 versus 11 can do the same. Don't let yourself be caught up in 5 hours of overwhelming ECs everyday, especially if they're of the "well-rounded" type. Of course, don't life your life according to admissions, but I'm pretty happy it worked out well in the end for me.</p>

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<p>Good input. Encomium I have few questions if you do not mind to answer me.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If school does not rank and only says that you are in top 10%? </p></li>
<li><p>Can you share to your stats. What will be your major?</p></li>
<li><p>My son took SATs and in first attempt has so far scored 800 in two SAT II. He was in top 3 scorers in the country for SAT while still in Junior High. </p></li>
<li><p>Where are you planning to graduate? I am sure John Jay is an attractive option at Columbia.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>1-I'm not sure what the question is. If it says you're top 10%, then that's just going to annoy colleges but it's out of your control. Focus more on testing. </p>

<p>2-My stats are 1560 SAT , 800, 790, 790, 780, 770, 770 SAT IIs, 3 5s on AP exams, and valedictorian. I plan to major in classics (however, this is not a huge hook. I haven't even taken AP Latin, so it's not like I'm a proven a latin genius or anything). </p>

<p>3-congrats!</p>

<p>4-I will matriculate at yale.</p>

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<p>So you are going to Yale and not looking to matricaute at columbia as a John Jay Scholar award! It seesm that money should not be an issue in your case. </p>

<p>Yale is awsome in classics. </p>

<p>BullDOG :) Buy as many blue clothes as possible. And avoid Crimson :) Just kidding. </p>

<p>Have fun in senior year and enjoy.</p>

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<p>"I was always told, by members on this board, by guidance counselors, by friends, etc., that the "way to get into college" was to pursue lots of extracurriculars--sports, music, art, student government, writing, etc. "
What you were told was wrong. The very top colleges look for depth, not breadth in ECs. They are looking for students who are real people, too, while pursuing ECs. Of course it's fine to go to movies, relax and do things like that. It's simply not fine (if one wants to go to a top college) to spend all of your time outside of class being a couch potato.</p>

<p>They want students who have pursued their interests in creative, deep ways, not students who have done lots of things simply for resume dressing and meanwhile have been having no real life.</p>

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<p>I'm curious - were these thing told to you by the people on the Parents Forum? In my experience, the overiding advice that I've seen has been exactly what you've "learned," to be passionate in one or a few things. I've also noticed the the students are much harsher in their assessment of possibilities.</p>

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<p>Encomium,</p>

<p>"If you compare your self to others, you may become vain and bitter: for always there willbe greater and lesser persons than yourself"</p>

<p>The only true fram of reference you have is your own as you can only talk about what has worked for you. It does not mean that you have discovered any kind of magic formula for getting accepted in to a selective college as there are scores of kids who have brought exactly the same things that you brought to the table and got rejected.</p>

<p>while you presented a good framework there are probably any number of intangibles that put your application in the admit pile as compared to someone who ranked higher or lower than you.</p>

<p>You a public, private or prep school student?
what is the percent of students that attend 4 year schools from your high school and what percentange attend selective schools.
Do you come from a high SES household?
Are your parents college grads/ professionals?
Are you a first generation college student?</p>

<p>In the end you are correct in stating that you are glad that it worked out for you. Congratualtions</p>

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<p>"'I'm curious - were these thing told to you by the people on the Parents Forum? In my experience, the overiding advice that I've seen has been exactly what you've "learned," to be passionate in one or a few things. "</p>

<p>I agree. I have seen uninformed students posting that the best way to get into top colleges with ECs is to get into as many ECs as possible. Parents, though, post that the best way to use ECs to impress top colleges is to pursue your natural interests with passion, depth and creativity.</p>

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<p>northstarmom:</p>

<p>I agree with you that it is better to pursue your ECS based on one's interest and not to choose what colleges want to see. Actually ECs sometime leads to opportunities, which leads to even better academic research interest. In our sons case his one EC allowed few opportunities, which are just amazing and have allowed him to collect few thousand dollars in scholarships. But his focus is only that he likes to do in ECs based on his interest and gaining new skills rather than college admission. </p>

<p>BUt I think the op is right that one should also dwell in academics and take the courses which allow them to excell and pursue new interests.</p>

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<p>ParentNY, in answer to your comment, John Jay Scholar does not come with money.</p>

<p>I agree with the majority of the posters. Most of what the OP says is the mantra here (depth not breadth), but I am not sure the super-high scores are necessarily the ticket--just look at some of the turned down students' stats and you'll see that.</p>

<p>I think that generalizing from a cohort of one is probably not wise.</p>

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<p>NSM--
I think it's a little unrealistic to expect students to all of the sudden develop a passion in 9th grade and pursue it to creative degrees without having college in the back of their minds. When I was in 9th grade, I had no idea what I wanted to do or what I liked, so I tried out a bunch of activities. My interests developed over time. But of course, when I tried out these activities, I knew that college admissions was looming around the corner. I mean, college admissions is like business. You have to do things you sometimes don't always like to get ahead. Are you telling me every straight A applicant to Harvard just loves that calculus problem set, or that physics project? No. We do them out of interest, and learning, but we often push ourselves and work hard for the sake of future goals. The same is with extracurriculars. I tried and committed myself to a few ECs I didn't like, just to learn about myself, all the while keeping college in the back of my mind. I ended up finding something I liked, but I did continue some of the activities I wasn't thrilled about so it wouldn't appear that I lacked committement and was fickle. Not everyone has the capacity or understanding about himself and his interests to purse something in a creative, deep way. If I started high school over again, I would have tried out more in music and art, since I enjoy them. To expect kids to have college admissions completely out of sight and out of mind in their selection of activities is unlikely. Heck, even at this age, I'm not even sure, other than languages and classics, what I'm interested in. At college I'm going to try something new. </p>

<p>And I got into college. </p>

<p>digmedia--</p>

<p>Well, I'm thinking back to people like soozieVT whose daughter played like 3 varsity sports and music and all that jazz and supposedly spent all of her waking hours traveling and going to games. If she likes doing that, fine, but I myself prefer enjoying my high school years in other ways. Less so from this forum I guess, and moreso from high school parents, friends, and guidance counselors, I get the distinct impression they are surprised about my college results since I'm not your typical class president/track captain/star clarinetist you think about. In fact, none of my activities are really an "asset" to colleges (like you'd think about dance, sports, music, art, etc.).</p>

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<p>Congrats Encomium, what a record - but, just on the face of it, Andi's son had a similar profile, and exactly the opposite record - so unfortunately, it is still anecdotal!
You do make some good points, though, DD's GC, tactfully pointed out that sometimes science and math teachers may not write the best recs - give some thought to who you ask. Also, I'm not sure any "ordinary" ECs can trump holes in your academic record, even tiny slip-ups at HYPS level. DD and I were talking about how in the world did she get into Dartmouth, after looking at the stats of the RD acceptees, and she said I didn't give them any reason NOT to accept me academically, I might not be the top of the heap, but I'm very consistent - I think she's right, got to check all those boxes!</p>

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<p>Oh--</p>

<p>One more tip</p>

<p>:Present your applications well! I deliberately chose my font, my paper, a special folder, a well-organized format---an overall aesthetically pleasing design. </p>

<p>Thanks cangel---but it seems like Andi's son didn't have a "hook." I'm guessing my community service work was a hook.</p>

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<p>oh btw,</p>

<p>If you guys ever want essay writing tips, PM me.</p>

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<p>garland :)</p>

<p>You may be right about money associated with John Jay. Howvere columbia gives it to a top scholar.</p>

<p>Kid has offred his perpective and it may not work for oothers. But I am sure Columbia and other school showering him with other awards (money or no money) may have seen something positive in him. With that I say we should allow him to express his opinions. Is that such a bad thing. I am sure at least I will benefit from his views.</p>

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<p>Hey Encomium, congrats! I guess I also would have to disagree that the parents are telling kids to load up on EC's. Yes, Soozie's D's are the exception, but I don't think I remember Soozie telling anyone else to load up on EC's like her own D's. Anyway, it seems to have worked for them! I agree with you about the grades. They may not get you in, but they will keep you out if they are so-so. All the kids I know that got into the most selective schools had stellar grades. Some of the SAT's weren't that great though. Well, to qualify that--in the 1450 range--which is very good, but not perfect (I know a white male that got into MIT and Cornell with a 1450 and was athletic--every anecdote has a slightly different twist, doesn't it?)</p>

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<p>Why are parents attacking this kid? he did not say he is the best. He just stated his accomplishments and said like a 18 year old few statement. Ignore his comments if you do not agree.</p>

<p>Sybie I have great respect for you. You are better than this. It is uncalled "If you compare your self to others, you may become vain and bitter: for always there willbe greater and lesser persons than yourself" Let the kid teach me atleast few things I am not aware about. At least I did not see that he said he is the best.</p>

<p>I am sure his statement does not tell us all. He may be wrong in his assumptions. But let him say few sentences. This is what I call a real diversity in opinions which is paramount in colleges. Not by colors or race. This opinion diversity is very important to me.</p>

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<p>"I think it's a little unrealistic to expect students to all of the sudden develop a passion in 9th grade and pursue it to creative degrees without having college in the back of their minds."</p>

<ol>
<li><p>In general, when it comes to top colleges, students have been pursuing their passions for a long time. It didn't start in 9th grade. Their pursuing their passions had nothing to do with college, everything to do with their simply liking to do some things.</p></li>
<li><p>For students who don't have a passion in 9th grade (the majority of students), it's a good idea to try a variety of things to find out what they like and what they are good at. When they find that they really like an activity, they should continue to pursue it, using their creativity, and they should also look for ways to take leadership in that activity.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>" Are you telling me every straight A applicant to Harvard just loves that calculus problem set, or that physics project? No. We do them out of interest, and learning, but we often push ourselves and work hard for the sake of future goals"</p>

<p>I am specifically referring to ECs. Of course, if one wants to go to a top college, one should strive to get as high grades as possible all of one's courses. If one wants to go to HPYS, it's also wise to take AP calc because that's virtually expected of all applicants.</p>

<p>If one wants to be a journalist or creative writer, however, while it probably is a good idea to take AP calculus to be on track for a top college, that doesn't mean that one has to pursue Mu Alpha Theta as one's extracurricular,.</p>

<p>Instead, one should get involved in the school newspaper and/or yearbook and/or the local newspaper, attend creative writing conferences, got to a journalism or creative writing camp or take a summer workshop/class in writing, or spend one's spare time writing a novel or short stories. One could start a creative writing club at one's school or work with student government or the high school administration to have a writer do an assembly or career day presentation.</p>

<p>One should take the time and effort to run with one's passions, not load up on ECs that you have no interest in just to try to impress colleges.</p>

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<p>First of all, I feel the need to apologize for not posting earlier. I've been a lurker for at least two years, and have benefited from everyone else's knowledge, but never felt that I had anything new to offer. Now that we are finishing the process for our oldest child, I'd like to thank everyone (particulary Jamimom, TheDad and Marite!) -- I'd also like to describe what worked for us.</p>

<p>Kid applied to 14 schools -- I know people will think that that's too many, but we were concerned about selective nature of schools and potential for merit aid. He was accepted at 10 (Columbia, Duke, Dartmouth, Rice, U Chicago and others) waitlisted at a couple (Harvard and MIT) and received merit aid from other schools not in the top 20. After all of my concern about merit aid, he'll probably go with one of the first 3 listed, and we'll all take out loans! </p>

<p>I just wanted to tell you what I think made a difference. We selected a wide range of schools, from all areas of the country, although we live in Massachusetts. I had heard many reports of how difficult it is for kids from the NE and we wanted to give the benefit of some geographic diversity. </p>

<p>His main EC was music, with some research thrown in. Grades were near 4.0 and SATs were high, but not the highest. I think the main difference was in the quality of each application. He spent time to make them neat and orderly, included a cover letter and resume, and also included a music CD. I don't know if we'll ever know what really made the difference, but I can say he would be happy at any of his choices -- even the less selective ones. He plans to go to graduate school, so we tried to help him understand that the UG degree was not as important. Of course, we're happy with the results, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if he had only been accepted at a few. He still would have good options.</p>

<p>I wish I had more to say to help those who did not have the outcome they hoped for. You just never know what the future holds, and it may well be the case that the path you are meant to take is not the one you see for yourself. Good luck to everyone and thanks for the help!</p>

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<p>You a public, private or prep school student?</p>

<p>public</p>

<p>what is the percent of students that attend 4 year schools from your high school and what percentange attend selective schools.</p>

<p>about 78%...a good proportion (for a public school) goes to top 50 schools, about 3-5 ivies a year</p>

<p>Do you come from a high SES household?</p>

<p>????</p>

<p>Are your parents college grads/ professionals?</p>

<p>college grads + professionals </p>

<p>Are you a first generation college student?</p>

<p>nope, and i'm wealthy</p>