<p>I see the deadline has passed for 2011. I assume my son can still apply for the 2012 one.</p>
<p>Sbjdorio, you have to read each school’s financial aid website that deals with outside scholarships. Ivy league schools are not all alike in policies. The financial aid at Harvard is very different from that of Cornell’s which is very different from Penn’s and so on. </p>
<p>There are several issues that need to be addressed in these situations. First of all when you apply for financial aid, you have to complete a FAFSA which will give you a government EFC. That number along with the schools Cost of Attendance (COA) is what determines the federal aid and sometimes state aid your student will get. That is no where near what the COA of these schools. To get the schools to give your student money out of their own funds, you need to also fill out FAFSA. That figure is what the school uses to give out its own money.</p>
<p>So if your student gets an outside award, one thing that has to be checked is that s/he is not getting more money than the school COA when federal funds are involved. That is not permitted for certain federal monies, and so reduction in aid has to happen in that case. It is federal law. With most schools what usually happens is that federal work study and Stafford loans (first unsubsidized, then unsubsidized) is removed to bring the student into compliance with federal law. If the college itself gives out loans (like Cornell does), those loans might be removed as well, or even first. The order of removal is individual. </p>
<p>Then each college has its own rules about whether or not it will allow an outside scholarship reduce the cost to the parent that the school has established. My son’s college states that it will permit this situation, but that is not how all schools operate. Some schools will start replacing college financial aid grants with the outside award rather than letting it go towards what it has told the family it has to pay. They can then use that money for other students who may be desperately petitioning the financial aid office for more money. The money, is after all for need, not for merit.</p>
<p>In the case of merit awards, at some schools you can even make money, though that is rarer than it used to be. if your kid gets a big merit award from the college and then gets a big outside award, the only thing that will be reduced is if the student wanted an unsubsidized Stafford loan or the parent had applied for PLUS and been approved, are those federal loans amounts since you are not allowed to borrow over COA for them You can keep the excess over COA in terms of the school’s merit awards and the outside scholarship in those cases. </p>
<p>So, yes, in the Harvey Mudd situation, if your son got the full tuition merit award, he can also get an outside scholarship in any amount and reduce his EFC and even pocket the money over COA if he gets so much. I know a young many who is pocketing over $20K in outside scholarships that are over and beyond what his costs are going to be since he got a full tuition award, then a merit award. Had he picked another school, that might not have happened because some schools don’t allow the layering of internal scholarships. It all comes down to the individual school other than the federal restrictions that they all have to follow.</p>
<p>Thank-you, cpt. This is extremely helpful and encouraging. We will look at each school’s policies very carefully (I had not realized how different even Ivies are from one another) in the next few months so we can go into this with our eyes wide open.</p>
<p>Oh, yes, Sbjdorio. Some give out loans. Some do not. Harvard has it’s own formula that makes it very possible for even higher income families to get aid. So, yes, they differ widely. Even schools that say they use the exact same methodology have come up with very different financial aid packages for families.</p>
<p>Spjdorio, second paragraph, last sentence, the FAFSA I wrote should have been PROFILE. My bad; I am sorry. FAFSA is what you need to complete to get an EFC for government money. PROFILE is what most private colleges require for your student to get the funds that colleges them selves give out for financial aid. They each have their own standards as to how to calculate aid even with the same PROFILE. The bulk of financial aid for these schools that cost over $50K a year comes from the colleges them selves. All you are guaranteed from the government are PELL grants if you are truly low income and Stafford loans in the amount of $5500 for freshmen. </p>
<p>The thing is, you don’t know which of these sort of schools are going to accept you. Getting accepted is a big hurdle in of itself. My advice is to get as much info and apply to as many outside scholarships as you can. The more money you can get, the more flexibility your student will have. It really makes no sense worrying that some school is going to reduce its awards due to outside scholarships. To be in that situation is enviable.</p>
<p>The only students who should be concerned about this are kids who already are accepted and have a nice fin aid package from a school. They might want to check out if it is worth their time to be going for outside awards at this time. Clearly it is not beneficial and a good use of their time, it it is simply going to reduce their grant money. But if they can get rid of their loans and/or work study, it might be a good investment of time. </p>
<p>But in your case, for next year, you don’t know where your student is going to be with how much award money. You want as many options as possible.</p>
<p>*so then we’re still left with trying to find some way to pay our EFC. Ugh. We know we can squeeze maybe 5K a year but no more than that. *</p>
<p>Well, how much do you think your EFC will be at an elite college?</p>
<p>mom2collegekids,</p>
<p>I’ve only done Princeton’s calculator and our EFC was $6500. I did the College Board’s EFC calculator and it came out between 10-11K, depending on which methodology. I could see my son taking $1500 a year loan but not 5K a year.</p>
<p>That makes sense, cpt. I am starting to get on my son to apply for scholarships; he’s such a procrastinator. He applied for the NMS through my dh’s work, which is 6K, but we won’t know about that for a while. He is really hoping to use his physics research to enter some competitions but that’s a long shot. There are about 5 other scholarships on the radar right now. That is a good start. He already has some scholarships from bowling from years ago but it’s under 1K. Every little bit helps, right?! :-)</p>
<p>*I’ve only done Princeton’s calculator and our EFC was $6500. I did the College Board’s EFC calculator and it came out between 10-11K, depending on which methodology. I could see my son taking $1500 a year loan but not 5K a year.</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford all have what I call “super aid,” and their “family contributions” are much lower than the other schools that “meet need.”</p>
<p>If your “family contribution” is about $6500 from Princeton and about $10k from FAFSA , does that suggest that your family income is about $80k per year with minimal assets/equity?</p>
<p>I can understand not wanting your child to borrow a lot, but limiting to $1500 per year is really low. That’s only $6k by the time he graduates. That’s fine as long as you can swing the EFC, but if you can’t, what other choice do you have?</p>
<p>Clarifying for sbj…</p>
<p>“That’s fine as long as you can swing the EFC, but if you can’t, what other choice do you have?”</p>
<p>The Stafford loans are used to meet need; in other words, they are <em>outside</em> EFC. To decrease your son’s loans at a full needs school, you would have to be able to pay the contribution they expect PLUS the $4K they are likely to package. </p>
<p>In other words, almost all colleges will require your son to take out $5,500 in loans for freshman year AND contribute several thousand in the summer. Those amounts are not part of your contribution. So, for example, if your FAFSA EFC is $6500 and your estimated Profile contribution is $10K, most Profile schools will expect a total family contribution of about $18K as follows: $10K from parents, $5,500 from student loan and about $2.5K-$3K in summer earnings. Be aware that, in our experience, most no loan schools calculate the family contribution and often the work component higher than schools that offer loans. So, for example, with the same numbers, the school may say they expect $13.5K from parents, $3K summer earnings and $1.5K in work-study. There are no loans but it’s not necessarily a better package.</p>
<p>Just one other note since sj is early in the process – please be aware than when calculating using PROFILE every school has a different interpretation of what your contribution will be. SO for example, is you have a lot of home equity, even though it’s not counted for FAFSA, a CSS/Profile school will sometimes expect you to leverage a portion of that as an asset. So you cannot count on the “EFC” of $10-11k – that would be absolute minimum, in my experience, even without FAFSA assets.</p>
<p>For this reason it is also useful to have some solid fiscal safeties lined up – eg. a public in-state where your son is in the top percentile of matriculating students if you’re looking for attractive merit and affordable scenarios.</p>
<p>2college makes a good point about schools that put loans in FA packages.</p>
<p>For THOSE schools, they WILL put 5500 per year in their FA packages for student loans.</p>
<p>When I was talking about loans, I was talking about schools like HYPS that don’t put loans in FA packages. </p>
<p>I think Mudd does put loans in FA packages to meet need.</p>
<p>Your goal to have your child only borrow 1500 a year may not work out if you can only afford to pay $5k and the FA package has a $5k loan in it ABOVE what it expects you to pay. </p>
<p>Your child needs to apply to some financial safety schools just in case the FA doesn’t work out like you’d want . Include some schools where he’d get LARGE ASSURED merit for his stats as financial safety schools. Otherwise you may find yourself next spring with a handful of acceptances with expectations that YOU pay $10k and your child borrowing $5500…for a total of $15,500 coming from your family in cash and loans.</p>
<p>While what mom2 says is true for many schools it is not true at all Profile schools. Rice and Vandy (and several others) have student borrowing limits. Rice limits students loans to $2500/year (10k total) if the family earns over $80k/year ($0 in loans for lower incomes). So in the hypothetical case above, YOU/your-child would be on the hook for $12.5k/year. I can also add that Rice and Vandy are both generous with aid. I have seen several packages from them and the family contribution they expected matched the federal EFC for the families involved.</p>
<p>Whew, it’s complicated and frustrating. I’m really trying to take it all in. I have looked at so many colleges for financial safeties but there are very few that fit the bill. The thing is, my son’s interested in math and physics and has taken a lot of college classes in both subjects. In fact, this year as a junior, he took the hardest u/g physics class at our local state univ and he’s doing graduate level research there this summer and will take one of the last u/g physics courses in the fall. Wherever he goes, he needs to have either really high level coursework or graduate level coursework. Our local UC, UCSD, is on the list but it’s no financial safety, believe me. UTD is one school that for sure is a financial safety and is on the list. I’ve looked at various national merit schools but there aren’t that many that are appealing because of my son’s interests in math, physics, and strong music.</p>
<p>I have tried to compile a list of schools that are generous with aid, have high level math/physics courses, and appeal to my son for other reasons, as well.</p>
<p>MS Mom is right…some CSS schools limit loans in FA packages. However, some CSS schools will put the full 5500 in there. That’s why I used the words “may” in my post:</p>
<p>Otherwise you **may **find yourself next spring with a handful of acceptances with expectations that YOU pay $10k and your child borrowing $5500…for a total of $15,500 coming from your family in cash and loans.</p>
<p>Because I have no idea of whether your son will get accepted to those schools that limit student loans to $2000 per year or less.</p>
<p>But…the bigger concern may end up being paying for the “family contribution” if the school determines it to be in the $10-11k per year. </p>
<p>UTD is one school that for sure is a financial safety and is on the list. I’ve looked at various national merit schools but there aren’t that many that are appealing because of my son’s interests in math, physics, and strong music.</p>
<p>Well, keep looking for more big financial safeties so that you’ll have more than one.<br>
Look at Texas A&M…they **stack **NMF and other merit money for nearly a full ride or maybe it is a full ride.</p>
<p>I have looked at Texas A & M again and again but it’s a large school and my son does not want to be at a large school. I’ve looked at Texas Tech, U of Tulsa, Auburn, and a few others. I’ve looked at UMBC where they have chess/scholar scholarships which he could get. He and I are ready to accept that if he doesn’t get into any college on his list with the right amount of money, he will do like everyone else does in our neighborhood and finish his CC classes and transfer to UCSD. Since he has straight As, I think he could do it. He would much rather find a school that fits or stay at home than pick a school that he’ll not be happy with. It’s not the worst thing in the world. He’ll have amassed 60-70 credits by the time he graduates so transferring wouldn’t be a big deal. We just don’t want debt and don’t want him in debt. Maybe it’s because my dh never went to college that he can’t fathom 5K a year debt. Maybe it’s that I came out of graduate school (didn’t finish my masters but was in college 10 years while working) with very little debt. Course that was back in the dark ages when my school cost probably 1K a semester.</p>
<p>We’ll hopefully get this all on a spreadsheet and then work our way through so we understand the nuances as best as they can be understood this side of admissions…and he’ll start working on those scholarships! :-)</p>
<p>^i am by no means a fan of student debt but in this case it sounds as if your son’s level of accomplishment warrants a shift of perspective to look at (what to us in the system now) consider to be modest levels of debt as an “investment.” What I mean by that is to weigh the possibility of up to $25,000 - $30,000 in student loans over the 4 years of undergrad as not terribly different than buying a car. You’re talking about possibly $280 a month over 10 years in exchange for an opportunity to network with highly accomplished peers and mentors, which to some extent can help define future options, research and grad opportunities, etc. If your son is very clear about the characteristics of the schools he wishes to attend, then he may well be content to forgo a “new car” in his 20s in order to pay off that debt – that’s how I managed my student loans a long time ago – living a little more modestly for a decade than I might have otherwise – but my earning power had also proportionately increased 
Now I cringe when I hear students using this particular rationale for debt amounts I consider to be excessive in terms of worst case scenario payback, because I know life often doesn’t go the way they think it will. But there’s a fine balance in choosing a school wisely where you truly want the best possible quality and peer pool you can reasonably afford. Using the national fed loan limits is more or less “reasonable.”</p>
<p>The other consideration is that where YOUR financial say is concerned, you do have a stake in the game. But it’s your son, not your husband, who needs to decide that he’s comfortable with the level of investment required once all your options are known.</p>
<p>For this reason and to some degree you will need to let the process unfold a little and avoid discouraging him from applying somewhere just because you think they might not offer a good package. On one hand, it’s good to be informed. On the other, you can drive yourself nuts with anxiety trying to guess how it will all shake out – I know this first hand
In my case, my son’s first choice was a talent-based, tough admit at a school of music that were taking 4 in his spot that year. His second choice was a similar program in NYC that was unbearably expensive. Dead last were two schools that would have practically paid him to come. Deep down, I actually didn’t even think he’d get in at his first choice, but in the end, the universe ( and his school) gave him full tuition scholarship.
So in that case he had to determine whether he wanted a full ride, or to have some skin in the game via loans at his first choice. He chose the modest investment and is delighted at his program, as are we. A friend of his who was equally talented (with a 35 act no less) chose the fill ride for the sake of full ride, not preference, and dropped out within a year. (a fact that still blows my mind on one hand, but that I kind of understand on the other. He wasn’t at the center of the decision is the only way I can describe it.)</p>
<p>So my suggestion is to be sure to include him in your research and rationale and use the process as a teaching/training opportunity – but let him drive the choices as much as you can because he’ll be then one who is invested ;)</p>
<p>And despite the sense of overwhelming worry, do enjoy the process and treasure your time together this year!</p>
<p>Ps gotta run, but with your reference to having a strong music program – is he actually thinking about a dual degree, or just wants access to grat instructors? That makes rice a good fit but aiming for a school with a top conservatory really really narrows your selection and isn’t exactly worth the trouble unless your a performance or composition major because general student typically do not especially have easy access to top studios. That said, Yale and MIT come to mind as great schools with superior opportunities for musicians, but notable no undergrad som!</p>
<p>sbj - a lot of local scholarships are one year and not renewable. You need to verify this if you are counting on that money for 4 years. How about looking at schools where your sonis in the upper 25% of the applicant profile? Schools that are know for awarding good merit? Sounds like your son is a smart kid who wants to be challenged, that are some lower level schools that may be able to do that and will want your son so much they will give him good merit.</p>
<p>Mamom, makes a very good point. Most of the local scholarship, and many of the outside awards are indeed for just one year. So it’s wise to see what kind of a package the schools are offering even if the awards get eaten up by outside money the first year.</p>
<p>The scene with the loans is even more assidious that just those $5500 Staffords. Some school have Perkins loans and even their own school loans they give kids. Cornell, for example, has a loan pool that they use for those with need along with grants. So a kid can end up well over $30K in debt on his own in some scenarios. </p>
<p>OP, look at Momfromtexas’s thread on full ride scholarships. A lot of techie like schools pop up. Other places that a math type kid might want to look for safeties are the Maritime schools and schools like Webb Institute. Low cost with a high return.</p>
<p>What I have been trying to do is look at the school’s offering in math and physics first to see if there are actually classes that he could take for 4 years. This eliminates a lot of schools, particularly LACs. Being that he doesn’t want a large university (unless it is UCSD because he could be a commuter), this narrows the field. However, he <em>does</em> love the idea of an LAC because he’s very interested in continuing his Arabic study, his writing, and other liberal arts studies. We originally thought he’d be going to a private Christian college but after a math prof at Grove City told him it wouldn’t offer him enough we began looking at highly selective schools. We visited Princeton and my son’s friend there told my son he should talk with the physics chair about placement since the class he just finished is a junior level class at Princeton. He is more likely to major in math but if he does intend to stick with physics, he does need an exceptional program. It is what it is.</p>
<p>I will look for momfromtexas’s thread. A few schools like CMU seem like great fits but they are off the list due to poor f.aid.</p>
<p>mamom, you’re right! I keep forgetting that most of these scholarships are for one year. Drat! I need to keep that in mind. First year might work out ok but then what, right? I know I had to transfer colleges because I ran out of money as a went from an expensive private to the state school where my son takes his classes.</p>
<p>kmcmom, I appreciated your perspective. Congratulations to your son (who sounds like an <em>amazing</em> musician!) for getting a full tuition scholarship and for choosing the school that was a great fit. It does seem that modest loans could be a part of the picture. I will explore this with my son and dh. My son’s plans (as of now) include graduate school and eventually a PhD. How does that figure into the equation for debt as an u/g?</p>
<p>My son doesn’t seem bent on double majoring in music, though when he visited Taylor Univ. as a soph., he definitely discussed the idea of a triple major at the time. He would consider minoring in music. He’s not the kind of violinist who’s winning concerto competitions (only been a winner once out of two competitions he’s entered) or anything like that. He’s a freelance professional violinist, quartet member, classically trained for 11 years and plays concertos and all of that (symphony, etc), but also a rock vioilnist in two local bands as well as a worship leader on guitar and vocals and he teaches private violin as well as teaches as an elementary school. He does music all the time-it’s his biggest EC-but he’s gone at it from a totally different direction than your top violinists. He is currently doing recording for his arts supplemental as one of the band members has a recording studio so he will definitely submit a supplement but whether he’d major or minor in it to get scholarships, he hasn’t said.</p>
<p>Mamom, my son’s 800 on math and 790 in CR (730 in writing) put him in the top 25% at quite a few schools and I really and truly have looked at ones that fit. (There are some other criteria I haven’t discussed here such as strong Christian support on campus, sports, etc.) Truly, the top ones on his list that seem to fit the bill are the ones I mentioned:</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd (has contact there via the FAST program)
Princeton (visited friends there and loved it)
Vanderbilt (he’s enamoured of Nashville and the music scene but has never visited)
Penn (he’ll have an inside recommendation there which is nice and he loved it)
UTD (seems to have a lot for math/physics/chess and we have friends in the area)
UCSD</p>
<p>Davidson (may not have enough in physics but should have enough in math)
WUSTL</p>
<p>Possibles:
Harvard
MIT (just got accepted to a visitation day but not sure we can swing the $$ for airfare)
U of Rochester (if he decides to study optics which is the area of his current research)
Baylor (good scholarships so I’m told)
Texas Tech or A&M</p>
<p>Have looked at but probably rejected:</p>
<p>Stanford
Caltech
U of Tulsa
Auburn (too large)
Emory (not the right fit)
Tulane (not sure; just don’t know enough about it)
CMU (lousy aid but would probably be a good fit; my son loved Pittsburgh)
Furman (probably not enough math and physics offerings)</p>
<p>I’ll keep up the search. Appreciate the advice!</p>
<p>I haven’t been following this conversation but I’ll just throw in what I know about Vanderbilt: </p>
<p>If your EFC is about $10,000, and Vandy’s estimated total cost is $62,000, they will offer your son a grant for about $50,000 and a federal work-study program for $2,000 to entirely cover your need without any loans. So, you’ll just need to pay $10,000*** every year, which you can get Stafford/prviate loans to help out with (personally, we refinanced our home to get the money).</p>
<p>As for outside scholarships, they first go towards reducing the federal work-study program’s aid. So, basically, you can receive up to $2,000 a year in outside scholarships before it begins to just cut out of the grant. </p>
<p>If you receive say, $1,000, you will now have a $50,000 grant, $1,000 scholarship, and $1000 from work-study (aka half as many hours to work).</p>
<p>If you receive say, $3,000, you will now have a $49,000 grant, $3,000 scholarship, and work study will be removed.</p>
<p>Any any case, you can choose to NOT participate in work study, but you’ll still of course be expected to contribute the money that would have otherwise come from work-study.</p>
<p>***By the way, Vandy and most other schools overestimate the total COA; it includes maximum estimates for things like computers, books, transportation, “personal expenses,” etc. Even though it’s listed $62,000 at Vanderbilt and you’ll be expected to pay your EFC of $10,000 every year, you may end up spending as little as $6,000 a year if you cut out on those costs.</p>
<p>Final note, regarding your list, with a very similar EFC, I received a great financial aid package from Tulane (full tuition scholarship) and an awful financial aid package from UTulsa (even though they offered numerous scholarships, I was still left to pay a very unreasonable amount).</p>