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All this talk about who works hardest reminds me of the game played in college in all 3 of my assorted fields. I called it “my major is harder than your major”.</p>
<p>And no, collegealum, I certainly don’t believe this.</p>
<p>Time management is part of it qm. Not all of it.</p>
<p>"Apples to cranberries. LORs aren’t feedback forms from HR departments that are mandatory in the corporate/business world. " </p>
<p>You missed the point. They aren’t mandatory.</p>
<p>And you keep conflating the issue of whether a LOR should be written for a student that the prof can’t recommend in good faith, with the issue as to whether LORs are part of the job description. If a prof can’t recommend someone in good faith, fine. But if a prof simply can’t be bothered because “look how busy I am” – get a grip, all professionals are busy.</p>
<p>I estimate that I have about 500 hours of work that really <em>ought</em> to be finished by the end of May. The time estimate is based on focused, efficient work.</p>
<p>No amount of time management is going to get that done.</p>
<p>If you are talking about prioritizing and just dropping some of the work, in the category of “time management,” then, yes. But there’s no way to shoe-horn it all in. </p>
<p>And it’s not that I have been procrastinating on anything–at least, not in the sense that procrastinating would mean spending time goofing around, or doing things of only limited value while putting off this work (except, of course, on CC–but cancelling all the time devoted to CC really isn’t going to let me finish all 500 hours worth by the end of the month). Other essential work has been filling the time.</p>
<p>To go back to Pizzagirl’s comment, I suppose that I was one who suggested that some people in the STEM field are among the busiest people I know. If you read my comments on my typical schedule, in response to mathmom’s post, you’ll see that I am really not one of that group. I’m somewhere in the 25th-75th %ile for my department, to use CC parlance, and not sure exactly where within that range.</p>
<p>A Stanford prof I know reasonably well, about a decade older than I am, works from 6 am to 2 am the next day, on a daily routine basis. Having read about some of Lyndon Johnson’s aides, I think that some people in politics work the same sorts of hours. And certainly the impression of the State Department’s operations is in line with that. I imagine that there are people in many fields who work those hours (although I admit to some reservations about the number of years that they keep that practice up).</p>
<p>bookworm’s son’s advisor seems to me to be on one end of the bell curve, for sure. As the number of hours worked per week approaches 168, the number of people working that number of hours drops asymptotically to zero.</p>
<p>“One friend of a friend was kicked out a bio PhD program at a West Coast institution 20+ years ago because he refused to give up rock climbing at his advisor’s request despite more than fulfilling his PhD obligations.”</p>
<p>Friend of a friend. Another urban legend. No advisor “kicks someone out” because they have a personal hobby.</p>
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<p>You sound like a lot of folks who were never in or didn’t know close relatives/friends who were in academia and thus, not familiar with some of its cultural aspects. </p>
<p>Yes, faculty…especially junior faculty on the tenure clock are exceedingly busy and must prioritize tasks which the department/tenure committee considers most important*.</p>
<p>Moreover, my impression of the “I’m busy” excuse is really a form of a polite soft rejection for the student. In reality, if a Prof really felt a student was great for a given graduate program/in general…he/she will usually go full out for them…sometimes to the point of asking the student if they needed recommendations before the student even asks. </p>
<p>Regardless of reasons, if a Prof isn’t willing to write a rec, it’s a rejection and the student best be searching for other recommenders or failing that, do some deliberate soul searching to see what he/she did to cause every Prof/instructor in his/her major or for all classes taken in 4+ years to turn him/her down. </p>
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<li>Research/publications uber alles at research 1 universities, excellent teaching along with some research/publications and willingness to teach a minimum of 5 courses/year at Top 30 LACs. LORs aren’t counted for tenure/promotions in either case.<br></li>
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<p>You would think that…but it does happen and that particular account isn’t even the most unusual or egregious example. </p>
<p>Another case was how the father of a college classmate managed to get his PhD, but his advisor disliked him to the point of using his influence as the mover & shaker in his STEM subfield to prevent him from getting hired by any department in North America. </p>
<p>Did I mention he had the leverage of holding up grants for those who don’t go along? Said father had no choice but to leave academia and worked at various jobs from prep school teacher to corn farmer.</p>
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<p>Well, first of all, we were talking about professors, not PhD students, techs, or other people who work in labs. </p>
<p>In science, the people at the top end of the bell curve in terms of work ethic and talent typically end up as professors in academia (research universities). As assistant professors, they need to start their lab from scratch, recruit and train students, and need to compete for funding in a pool where everyone was a star. The path in industry is relatively easier. A grad student I knew who was being pushed by his advisor to become a prof said he would rather not do it. He was looking forward to a 60 hr workweek in industry, which still allows some semblance of having a life. </p>
<p>I think the most comparable thing to being an assistant professor in the larger workworld is founding a startup. People on the groundfloor of a startup, and certainly the founder/CEO, tend to be completely consumed by the work there. Other than the number of hours, the difference is that everything depends on you; the whole ship will sink if you don’t make sure everything is moving along.</p>
<p>I know a lot of people in major tech companies. They work regular hours. I imagine the people in industry who work like assistant professors tend to rise up the corporate ladder fairly quickly. But to hold a job in industry, it’s not required to do this.</p>
<p>Nor does every lawyer work like the district attorney of New York, every writer doesn’t put the same amount of hours as the ones on Saturday Night Live, and every doctor does not put in the same number of hours as a neurosurgeon. In the science world, the people who put the most into it typically are in academia. However, if we are comparing your average assistant professor to your average professional, the assistant professor is putting in more hours.</p>
<p>Bringing it back to the original discussion, this is why I think it is inaccurate to call an assistant prof “stupid and lazy.” It’s unlikely (impossible in some fields I would venture) that they are either.</p>
<p>While LORs are not contractually obligated, I would not agree that they are “optional,” given that the student deserves them. Are you going to get tenure/other metrics of success without successful students? No undergrad or grad student is going anywhere without a recommendation from their primary advisor. Why give someone tenure if they have never successfully advised a student?</p>
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<p>And who determines whether the student deserves them other than the Prof who is being asked to write one?</p>
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<p>Students have a lion’s share of responsibility for their own success from late HS onwards. If they’re not successful barring something extreme, the onus is on the student him/herself…especially considering they’re usually legal adults. </p>
<p>Part of being an adult is to take the initiative to attend most/all lectures, pay attention, complete the coursework, and go to Prof’s office hours to not only ask about coursework…but also develop a Prof-student relationship to see if it turns into a mentoring one over time. </p>
<p>Some HS teachers I’ve had would consider what you’re calling for a form of “spoon-feeding” students…and they were on our cases about it as HS students. Can just imagine their reaction if this was in the context of 17-22 year old or older undergrads. </p>
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<p>Other than the fact that the metrics for tenure tend to be overwhelmingly weighed in favor of research at research universities and good teaching with some research at LACs like the one I graduated from, do we really want to create a system where Profs are given incentives to provide more LORs…no matter how undeserving the student concerned or the fact it will undermine the gatekeeping purpose of an LOR for grad adcoms/faculty and/or clued in employers?</p>
<p>Of course professors should only recommend students they can genuinely stand behind.
But at my last institution, one tenured professor simply chose not to write letters of recommendation, even for the best student she’d seen in her career. She told students who sought one that this was her policy for all students. I think that’s outrageous, and no more acceptable than having a policy that you don’t teach classes or publish articles. Do the job or quit.</p>
<p>She didn’t get where she was without someone writing letters for her. Sickening.</p>
<p>I am saying:
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<p>You respond:
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<p>What have I said that indicates otherwise? I am not “calling for” anything. I am saying how things are, in my experience. Part of being a successful research professor includes having successful employees (i.e. students). This is the context in which I am making my statements. Just giving more LORs without regard to whether or not they are deserved just as bad, in fact more detrimental to the reputation of the professor, as giving none whatsoever. What I am trying to say is that it is not only a benefit to the student to write recommendations to deserving students, but also to the professor themselves.</p>
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Exactly. This.</p>
<p>Can completely relate with PG’s 2 professional couple lifestyle. When we had our first s, DH worked all day and went to school to earn his masters at night (on campus-- no on line stuff back then) and then, when we had 2 kids, in addition to his demanding work hours when home, he traveled a lot for his international company, at times up to 75% of the time. And I worked fulltime and then some (11 hr workdays plus consults and evening meetings and on call). Worked until the day I delivered each child (literally had to cancel appointments because I was in labor) and went back to work part time at 3 wks post delivery and fulltime at 6 weeks with first kiddo. I think I took a full 6 weeks before returning fulltime after the second. Wow. What a luxury. Oh and we have no family in town or anywhere nearby to help out. </p>
<p>But besides these crazy schedules we still made time to participate in the kids school and after school activities, volunteer (sports, scouts, school, religious, professional, social functions, etc, exercise (well DH exercises a lot- me, not so much), take family vacations, etc. And my being self employed for the past 22+ years (after many years in an employed position with guaranteed salary and benefits and without many of the managerial responsibilities) has its own additional set of stresses and demands. </p>
<p>Not looking for a pat on the back. Simply pointing out that somehow all of us have managed to do what we need to do, prioritize, juggle, get little sleep, delegate if we can, and by virtue of being members of this community share an interest in and understand the value of hard work and a good education for ourselves and our children. We should all be here acknowledging the hard work we have put in as professionals and parents. Not arguing over whose work is harder or sniping over whether a LOR is an obligation or a “favor”. We all take on responsibilities with our chosen careers, and, IMO, part of the teaching profession may include the responsibility of writing LORs when a student who deserves one requests one. As several of us have said, you do what you have to do. I think most of us share that same work ethic, and that work ethic is in part what got us to where we are.</p>
<p>I have a very healthy respect for single parents. I do not know how they do it.</p>
<p>And its not just academicians who are asked to provide LORs or other forms of reference for colleagues, current/former trainees, employees, etc. </p>
<p>To those who wrote them for me, my DH, my DS’s, thank you. I will, and do pay it forward. And it sounds like most here do as well. Thank you.</p>
<p>I don’t really understand the relevance of the discussion of how much time/how obligated profs are to write LORs to this thread. The professor said they would do it. They should keep their word in a timely manner, or notify the student that they cannot do so. That is basic courtesy, no matter what profession you are in and what you have said you will do.</p>
<p>This tit-for-tat “who is busier” discussion shouldn’t matter in the scheme of the issue the OP raised. If the prof said she would do it, she should do it or say she can’t. Period. End of story.</p>
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<p>In practice, the closest this comes to reality in practice in practice at all except small LACs and LAC-like universities is if/when Profs write recommendations for PhD students on the market for their post-doc/tenure track/research job. </p>
<p>Even then, this seems to benefit more established faculty who already gained tenure than junior faculty who are on the tenure treadmill. For the latter…it was almost always research/publications/grants uber alles.</p>
<p>You are right, intparent. The “who is busier” digression seemed to follow a few posts that IIRC suggested that (and this is paraphrasing) some faculty did not have the time to write a lot of thoughtful, well crafted letters. </p>
<p>Agree that if a student (for whom the faculty member felt they could in good faith write a helpful LOR) asked with sufficient advanced notice, that this whole hullabaloo should not have happened. Agree that the student should have not had to provide a ghost written letter nor had to send last minute hourly reminders. </p>
<p>But also agree that the student might have been better off asking someone else if they could, and that calling the professor all sorts of names here was excessive. Also agree that many people procrastinate or have many more time sensitive demands, so these letters may be provided at the 11th hour, which is unnecessarily stressful for the student.</p>
<p>But apparently it all worked out.</p>
<p>"Some HS teachers I’ve had would consider what you’re calling for a form of “spoon-feeding” students…and they were on our cases about it as HS students. Can just imagine their reaction if this was in the context of 17-22 year old or older undergrads. "</p>
<p>Can we have one thread in which we don’t hear about your high school? No one other than you cares what the teachers in your hs did or didn’t do. They are no more important than any other hs in the country. It’s odd for an adult to reference a hs so much.</p>
<p>With apologies for the personal question, which there is no need to answer, jym626, given your statements in #273, about working 11 hour days, plus consults and evening meetings and on call, plus spouse gone up to 75% of the time, and therefore unavailable to take up slack: How much sleep do you need?</p>
<p>Since you also wrote:
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<p>Are you on the Uberman sleep schedule?</p>
<p>There was a period of my life when I kept going over the most effective way to partition 168 hours in a week. For myself, what you describe is completely impossible.</p>
<p>Re intparent, #274: I agree with you, but we have different interpretations of “timely.” I think that a recommendation is “timely” if it arrives in the appropriate time frame for consideration by the admissions/selection/interview committee. The letters that MommaJ was concerned about obviously did. </p>
<p>“Timely” to me does not necessarily mean “in the time frame that is most desirable to the student.”</p>
<p>The prof said she would write the letter and she wrote the letters; and they arrived in sufficient time so that even the “super-reach” said “yes.” I have started to wonder whether the professor was being sarcastic by asking the student to remind her “hourly.”</p>
<p>A) I am sure I get less sleep than I need
B) That was decades ago (I don’t work those same hours now and the kids are grown)
C) We were fortunate to have weekday childcare assistance, which, as 2 fulltime + professionals with no family within thousands of miles, was the only way this was possible. That said, the childcare didn’t do any of the volunteer responsibilites. They did get them to some of their sports practices, but we (or at least one of us) attended all games. </p>
<p>It is not impossible. I lived it. And I have no idea what that sleep schedule is.</p>