<p>I would be surprised if a kid of that caliber could not get into SOME Tier 1 school somewhere. It’s not that difficult for many of them.</p>
<p>I find it difficult to believe that most tier 1 schools wouldn’t challenge the brightest of students that were actually LOOKING for a challenge.</p>
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<p>But again, where are you drawing the line? Because if the kid wants to go to HYP and instead he winds up at Tufts or Kenyon - eh, he’s not really “sacrificing” much in terms of caliber of peers, etc. and I’m not going to waste my time feeling sorry that he’s soooo much more advanced than everyone in his class and will be soooo bored with things, because that’s simply not accurate.</p>
<p>I would agree that the kid may be “sacrificing” if he winds up at East Directional State U where anyone with a pulse can get in. However (leaving money aside for the moment), this so-called “problem” can be ameliorated by wise choices in the college planning process, as opposed to merely applying HYP and East Directional State U. So this isn’t really so much as “it’s a travesty if he doesn’t get into HYP”; it’s a plea for better planning and a wider consideration of colleges. Our theoretical HYP contender has a LOT of schools that will serve him well before he descends (for lack of a better term) to East Directional State U that admits anyone with a pulse.</p>
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<p>While I don’t agree with folks who feel “all universities are the same” especially if the difference is between first and third or lower tiers*, I agree there are worse tragedies to worry about.</p>
<p>Especially considering that any negative consequences of attending a lower-tiered school could be alleviated by…TRANSFERRING after 1 or two years. </p>
<p>Dozens of HS classmates who ended up feeling underwhelmed academically and hamstrung by obstructionist bureaucracies at our state’s public/local colleges or lower-tiered private universities transferred out to more elite colleges like Reed or Columbia. </p>
<p>In so doing, they solved those issues and went on to have a more enjoyable undergrad experience by fulfilling their need to being surrounded by a critical mass of academic peers who are at/above their academic level.</p>
<p>I think the bigger question on the table is …</p>
<p>Are students who are being turned down at HYP et al and having to “settle” for “lower” colleges doing so because …</p>
<p>1) There’s some horrible politically correct notion afoot where tons and tons of smart students are being deliberately overlooked, no one wants 'em anymore, it’s not cool to be smart … or</p>
<p>2) Otherwise-smart-students are unsophisticated, apply only to HYP and very-tippy-top schools, don’t get it, have no back up plan beyond East Directional State U, and then they are screwed because they never thought to include Tufts or Kenyon or whatever on their lists, because they were short-sighted.</p>
<p>I personally think the problem is far more 2 than 1.</p>
<p>Megan- why not name a couple of these schools where the kids with the genius level IQ’s end up attending? Right now you’ve presented a straw man argument. Maybe we’ll agree with you. If I learn that a kid has been shut out of Cal Tech and MIT (who had the stats and the drive to be there) ends up at Norwalk Community College getting a certificate in C++ then I will be persuaded to your argument. I will be feeling less sorry for that kid if I find out he ended up at CMU, UIUC, or RPI studying computer science since there are few places that kid couldn’t get to-- and he will have a wonderful peer group, fantastic professors to mentor him, and wonderful opportunities for research in virtually any aspect of comp sci he might want.</p>
<p>So give us some specifics- maybe we’ll agree with you.</p>
<p>^ ^</p>
<p>I’d add another possibility:</p>
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<li>Smart students are hamstrung by parents/GCs who feel “all colleges are the same” and thus, effectively/actually restrict them to applying to local/regional colleges. This happened to several people I knew whose parents either genuinely didn’t see differences or were operating from erroneous assumptions that schools they thought were elite were no longer considered so.*</li>
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<p>*I.e. CCNY/CUNY after 1969 institution of open admission policies. Granted, that shocked me considering perceptions of that system’s steep decline in the '70s was so widespread in the NYC area that such parents must have lived under a rock and never examined local newsmedia. However, such parents did exist.</p>
<p>Yeah. Megan, it’s the repeat reference to “beneath their level” that baffles some of us. All the kids who don’t get into, say, the top-20 schools are together at a host of other great schools. If a kid has only top schools and a few dreaded, low competition safeties on his list, he has created a tricky situation for himself, by his own hand, missed the chance to identify other good fits. </p>
<p>Maybe you just mean some creme de la creme. But, if a kid is bright- and aware- he has to know any schools with fierce competition for x admits may not have a slot for him. I don’t think it’s good enough to say, he didn’t know, the GC didn’t tell him. Or, that the colleges should expand their space to accommodate him.</p>
<p>Yea, when you say “top tier”, what is meant - Top tier as in tier 1? Top tier as in top 20? What is your cut-off.</p>
<p>Top tier=looking for around 3.8 or above and around 2200 SAT or above. Ivies, Northwestern, Tufts, MIT, CMU, Stanford, Johns Hopkins, etc., etc.</p>
<p>You have to remember, too, that the average number these kids are going to apply to is about 10. You figure 3 or 4 reaches, 3 or 4 targets, and 3 safeties, except reaches and targets are the same thing at their level. The only difference probably are the stats for the acceptances. The reaches would mean something really hard to get into. You hope that they’ll get into at least one out of the first 7, but may end up at one of the other 3, although I’ve heard of kids not getting into their safeties too. </p>
<p>I’m not trying to start an argument. Just putting out a thought I had to see what ideas other people had.</p>
<p>So, you mention Tufts for instance. Why Tufts? Where do you/are you drawing the line? Tufts is ranked lower than Berkeley,UVa by US News- both public schools.</p>
<p>I reread this thread and thought a personal example might add to the discussion.</p>
<p>megan, you base your question on the premise that all smart kids WANT to go to a competitive “tier 1” institution. It might surprise you that some don’t. My son is a perfect example of this. He had the stats for “top” colleges but he just didn’t like the vibe at the ones he visited. He said to me “Mom, the kids here look pretty miserable.” Of course, he had no evidence that that was true, but he didn’t get a positive feeling from some of them. In high school he had a wide range of friends–some brainiacs, some just regular kids who shared his interests and perspectives. At our high school, a lot of the kids who typically apply and get into elite colleges are, frankly, not people he ever would have wanted to hang out with. He found the ones he knew pretentious, competitive, and self-absorbed. Why would he want to be at a college with MANY kids like that, even if he was equally intelligent?</p>
<p>Related to that, my son refused to do anything for “how it would look on college applications.” Which means he didn’t always take the hardest classes offered, but DID take the ones that interested him. He only had a couple of ECs, but he put his heart into them. He is not a competitive person at all, and he just flat-out rejected “playing the game” that might have improved his chances at certain colleges. (And again, there weren’t any he liked that would have required it.) </p>
<p>Fast forward to now: he is happily ensconced at his “second-tier” LAC. He is surrounded by smart, interesting kids (I’m sure he doesn’t know or care what their GPAs or SAT/ACT scores were). He loves his professors and is far more engaged in learning than he was in high school. The small classes and personal attention suit him. He could not be happier, and neither could his parents.</p>
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<p>Some of these kids suffer from being a really big fish in a very small pond and get bad advice from parents, teachers and guidance counselors. Gosh, you’re the best student the school has had in 3 years, and “everybody knows” the best students go to Harvard. Why waste time and money applying to a bunch of other places, too? It’s as if they expected their school’s track star to be able to automatically qualify for the US Olympic Team!</p>
<p>The competition, on a nationwide basis, is much more brutal than many of these folks realize.</p>
<p>Before we went through the college application process with my daughter, I had an out-of-date impression about the level of student “quality,” if you will, at schools that were not considered very selective back in my day. The schools my daughter applied to, and the one she ultimately chose, were nowhere NEAR my radar screen or my husband’s when we applied to college. But I think they have all become the kind of place I would have considered and the kind of student body I would have enjoyed being a part of.</p>
<p>I read a quote from the dean of admissions at Stanford a while back. He said he didn’t think he could build a better class out of 30K applicants (which is what they get now) than out of 10K (the number they got back in the day)–he said “I just end up rejecting duplicates of the same kid.” But if there really are 3x as many entirely qualified applicants, the other 2/3 have to go somewhere, and it’s not like they all just slink off, dejectedly, to their local community colleges. They fill the classrooms of colleges that, a generation ago, were not necessarily for kids who could have gone to Stanford. But now they are. Which means there are potentially 3x as many schools filled with top-notch, highly dedicated, smart, ambitious, and inspiring classmates. It’s a good thing, not a bad thing.</p>
<p>@LoremIpsum: The scenario you describe happened almost just like that with a family I know. The child and his parents just assumed all along that with his many talents (great grades and scores, tough classes, involvement in a wide range of ECs, lots of leadership), that it would be a no-brainer for him to get in to the top colleges of his choice. After an ED rejection from his first choice (an Ivy), he went a TEENSY bit lower on the “elite-school” scale and still got rejection after rejection. The problem as I saw it was that he never took the time to think about fit, and thus was unable to communicate a genuine interest in most of the schools on his pretty random list. I’m guessing he also seemed somewhat undifferentiated as a candidate (reinforcing DeskPotato’s point). It was as if he was trying to be all things to all people, and maybe that came through to the adcoms.</p>
<p>In the end, all he had was four options from his backup list. The family was pretty much in shock, and it was very stressful for all of them. They ended up hiring college counselors AFTER he had his options in hand to help him make a decision, and both of the people they talked to strongly advised him to go to our state flagship or one of the two institutions that offered him a lot of merit aid and admission to their honors programs. But “prestige” won out, and he chose an expensive, well-known East Coast university that costs close to $60K a year. He is not happy there, does not think the kids are especially bright, DEFINITELY does not think it is worth the high price, and is already talking about transferring.</p>
<p>@sally305 Your answers on here are very intriguing ones, and have me thinking about a lot of things. It maybe even changed my opinions on a lot of topics. Those are great situations to use as examples to explain some of your thoughts on here.</p>
<p>Cameron, I’m happy to help. Please feel free to PM me if you would like more information. I realize my perspective is sort of an outlier one on CC, but I am glad others sometimes find it thought-provoking.</p>
<p>I was just referring to the kids that want to go to those schools, but thanks for your thoughts sally305.</p>
<p>sevmom - I don’t really have a line. If you want to take Tufts off the list, that’s fine. I was just speaking generally, but people kept asking me to be specific.</p>
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<p>After being told you’re the very best for many years, it’s tough to walk away from the “validation” everyone around you expects. At least this kid has a good head on his shoulders and is reconsidering the cost/benefit value of staying where he is, perhaps ultimately saving his parents $100,000 or more.</p>
<p>The greater “big fish” problem, I think, is with those students whose whole self-image is wrapped around the idea of always being the best. It can be a shock to get into one’s dream school and discover you’re now only average and have to work your behind off for lessor grades. This can lead to a crisis of confidence when the student is most vulnerable, away from home for the first time.</p>
<p>^ With that being said, is it “normal” for your grades to lower in college from what they were in high school? (I’m sure there are some who are an exception to this.)</p>
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<p>Considering that most students who get into an elite school have near 4.0 high school averages, yea. What’s the average GPA for elite schools these days? Maybe 3.4? So a half point drop; STEM majors tend to get much lower averages.</p>
<p>The students who are hurt the most are those that used to rely on their diligence in turning in homework assignments on time (A+) to make up for B+'s on the tests. The students who benefit the most are the ones who understood the material and aced the tests but were disorganized when it came to turning in “busywork” assignments.</p>
<p>My son used to hate repeated cookie-cutter math homework problems in high school. Now, at Brown, he gets 8-10 homework problems a week per class, but they are very challenging and each tests the limits of one’s knowledge. For him, homework is now a pleasure, like solving puzzles.</p>