<p>Most schools need the legacy $. Why would they shoot themselves in the foot to be PC?
Schools like Princeton and Harvard don’t seem to need legacy money any more. They did for a few hundred years, but it seems the “worm has turned”.</p>
<p>A friend of mine who used to work in Admissions at Boston College—a college with a huge amount of alumni loyalty and school pride— told me they could fill the class 100% with well-qualified legacy kids if they wanted to, but they don’t. And, that alumni became increasing active and financially supportive of the school as their kids got to high school!</p>
<p>A question to past and incoming parents of BS graduates: are you able to find out in recent years how many graduates accepted to the top schools are legacies or the faculty kids of that college? Would the college counselors provide that information? I’ve heard that many BS’s are full of legacies and depending on the location there could be many college faculty kids too. Does a “non-hooked” student stand a chance at all?</p>
<p>I’m the child of neither a faculty member of a college or a high school, and both my parents went to a medium sized state school, so certainly people get in. None of my friends at Princeton from Andover are in that situation either. Certainly it’d happen, but one thing to consider is that the child might not want to go to the school at which his/her parents attended/work. On the other hand, I have a friend whose father went to Harvard, and that was his top choice. He was initially waitlisted but managed to get in. I’m unsure that College Counseling would give out such information, but I feel like it’s not a huge percentage of the students who go to such schools who are legacies/faculty children at the college.</p>
<p>I know college counselors will show which dots on Naviance are recruited athletes, but they also want to protect privacy. At these schools, it’s pretty easy to pair numbers to people, and I personally don’t want the college counselors making that any easier. I don’t think that legacy and faculty children numbers are important on their own, but should be compared to the stats of other students accepted to that school. You can’t compare a straight A student to a B student and say the only reason the A student got in was because he was a legacy. I agree with Uroogla. Within my group of friends very few, if any, fell under the legacy or faculty child description.</p>
<p>NoDrama- of course the “unhooked” kids have a chance. At my kids’ schools, it’s pretty obvious who’s going to go to Harvard, Yale or Princeton, and there are quite a few every year- it’s the intellectual superstars. Intel Science winners, national math awards, national debate champions- or any combination of the above. There are always a few surprises, but not too many. Often the kids that you woold consider “hooked”- legacies, faculty kids, concert musicians, football players etc- are also great academic students. The two factors are not not mutually exclusive.</p>
<p>Biohelpmom, your point is well taken, but let me rephrase my question or “concern”. Suppose there is a higher concentration of legacy/faculty kids in top boarding schools (true?), and suppose top colleges - take Harvard as an example - can only accept so many from one single pool, i.e. a single high school (the number of accepatance can vary from year to year I am sure, but is there such a thing as too many from one school? Probably yes), then when so many well qualified legacies and faculty kids are accepted it is natural that chances left for the “unhooked” that are just AS qualified are reduced. Makes sense? Now it’s beside the point that some legacy kids don’t want to follow their parents footsteps, because even so they’d apply to it anyway and take a spot then decline the offer, which in my opinion is worse. I guess I was just trying to get an idea if legacies/faculty kids are overwhelmingly dominant in top boarding schools. Because everyone agrees that college counselors are unlikely to give you that info, it is probably impossible to get “official” stats. However, according to Uroogla and Sugerkim, that doesn’t seem to be the case. So I guess that’s some good news to the “unhooked” - in a way.</p>
<p>I honestly don’t think that legacies and faculty kids dominate at the school that I know best, which all of you seem to rate as one of the most desirable. There are however, some TRULY brilliant kids there (think freshmen taking BC Calculus). They are the ones who will go to HYP and so it should be. Mine do go, and will go, to the (barely) next level down college with most of their classmates and will be very happy there. I know it’'s a cliche, but I’m a big believer in “fit.” Why are you so concerned? Do you have a child about to start prep school? For my kids, it has been the best thing that we ever could have done for them. Their college prospects are almost irrelevant.</p>
<p>Padre13 actually said it more eloquently than I could have “Paying $150K+ to attend a prep school does not automatically entitle a student to admission to the school of their choice. However, the data I produced above shows that overwhelming majority of kids at a top prep (which, if the SSAT was a good predictor, would include the 90% to 97% SSAT students in the class) will go to top 25-30 colleges and universities. Even at slightly lower performing preps, where they would be the upper echelon of the class, I’ll bet the data shows those 90-97% kids are getting into similar schools. Perhaps some of those aren’t “top top schools”, but they are unquestionably “top schools” where students get excellent educations that position them well for future success.” This has definitely been my observation.</p>
<p>The reason I am so persistently nerdy about college admission and legacies is that I’ve heard a couple of former BS parents complain about it. They are in no way representing the majority of BS parents but what they implied was that had their children gone to a different school (a public or a lower tier private?), they might be able to get to a better college. I am not saying they regret the whole BS experience, but if there’s anything they are not happy about it’s the college placement. I NEED to hear other opinions like yours and Padre13’s. Thank you for your contribution to my “research”.</p>
<p>Nodrama- Another thing I found surprising was how stable my kids’ test scores have been. Pretty much 95th percentile SSAT, 95th percentile PSAT, 95th percentile SAT. However, they have had a much, much better education than would have been possible at our local public school, even though the test scores probably would have been the same, and some incredible, spectacular extracurricular experiences. I actually think that college for them is, and will be a let down.</p>
<p>Although I found the college counselors to be great at Andover, it is important to remember that they cannot make up for poor grades, test scores, and ECs. I think that parents often have unrealistic expectations of these schools and their own child. It’s easier to find fault in the counselor you’ve met once than your own child. Every school has to have a bottom student. What sets boarding schools apart is that even the bottom student received a great education, which cannot be said for the bottom student in the average public school. </p>
<p>The majority of students at prep schools are attending very good colleges whether overall, in their desired field, in fit, in their sport, or in the financial aid department. I felt that the college selection process was more difficult than the boarding school one because there are more factors to take into account. A simple list cannot possibly show all of them.</p>
<p>In addition, the college counselors can only help as much as the student is willing to help himself/herself. At the start of the college process, students have to fill out a (rather long) questionnaire. And the counselors do read through them. The more they know about the student, the interests of the student, and so on, the better their suggestions can be. My counselor suggested Yale, which, in retrospect, was not a good fit for me, but she really had no way of knowing that at the time. The opinion of Harvard and Princeton students aside, Yale is a great school. It just wasn’t right for me. Sometimes students blow off these surveys, though (one of my friends filled in “not taking surveys” under interests, for example; funny, but not as helpful as taking the time to fill it out in full). And as sugarkim implied, the test scores and the grades of students are the students’ responsibilities. I’ve heard an Andover counselor blamed for certain students’ college results before, but the counselor really only writes 1 letter. The rest is out of his/her hands. Because the counselors used to serve as admissions officers at good colleges, they are better able to help students than the counselors at public schools a lot of the time. Things generally even out in these ways. And even if the “bottom” student at a private school, who might have been #1 or #2 at the public school they would have otherwise attended, doesn’t get into a “great” college that they might have gotten into otherwise, they’ll likely be better prepared.</p>
<p>No Drama, what you are referring to are statements by BS parents that its easier to get into the Ivies from large publics. The statements mean that if your student is an overachieving A student, with lots of AP’s, sports, EC’s in a public school, chances are he/she are in the top 5/3 % of the students. In a large first tier BS, there is a high concentration of such students, so not everyone of these A, etc students can be in the top 5, or even 10 or 15%. Competition to be at the top is harder, and most ivys take only the top%. Then combine this with a number of URM’s that may or may not be in that top, but are still strong students and are attractive to the colleges, as well as a number of high achieving athletes, and connected legacies – the chance for a garden variety high achieving A student to get into the ivies becomes smaller than for that same student in a public, where they are probably one of the very few top students.<br>
As padre said, its the middle to lower students in BS that gain greatly by being in a BS with connected counselors – as an example – a friend of mine is currently visiting colleges with a rising senior in a celebrated suburban public school. The middle of the road schools that are recommended by the school, are fairly low on the totem pole, something that my sons school wouldnt consider as a “safety” for a lower achieving student. There’s the great difference.</p>
<p>Thanks for the input, mhmm. I am little by little getting the whole picture now. It’s just really hard to figure out 4 years ahead of time which category your child falls into. 
And whether he would make to the top 5% in the public school (in ours, probably top 2%?), which may put him right in the range, or 6% and barely missed it regretfully. So I guess parents of BS need to manage their expectations. Understand that it would be a “fight” no doubt. And if you fail, maybe you can fall back on the thoughts that your child at least has received a better education than he would have in a public school. For parents/students who are considering going to BS, that’s something they should consider, but for those in the position of “no turning back”, I think it’s the best they can think of.</p>
<p>It’s worth mentioning that the “garden variety high achieving A student” as mhmm put it may struggle more once at an Ivy League college than those from top boarding schools, simply because the workload at a BS typically matches or even exceeds that of a freshman year courseload at an Ivy, while some (certainly not all, though) public school students will have coasted through coursework, having never received a grade lower than an A. Students tend to learn more about themselves and how to study better by receiving a “wake-up call” and some lower grades than by receiving all As.</p>
<p>So in the end, a student who goes to a BS and ends up in the middle of the pack, thus going to a very good, but not Ivy League, school could very well end up looking more attractive to employers than a student who goes to an Ivy League school but then struggles with the work the first couple of years.</p>
<p>I think Uroogla has overstated the difference between BS and PS fro college to some degree. BS grads will lhave some advantage initially in terms of maturity and time management skills, but it even outs for students academically after the first semester or year. Frankly, college is a different ball game and those who want to achieve there will do so, regardless of where they “came from.” Since Ivy League colleges take more than 1/2 and sometimes 2/3 of the entering class from Public school, they certainly don’t believe that those students will ALL struggle with the work. In fact, I am confident that they believe that all students they admit are fully capable of the work.</p>
<p>It’s true that I’m speaking only from anecdotal evidence - I know only what I’ve heard and what I’ve seen personally. I’ve been told that by the end of the 2nd year, things have evened out, but not doing well at the start of college does leave some doubt in the mind of some students who haven’t yet learned to deal with failure, however they define it (whether it be an actual failing grade or a B). There are certainly public schools as good as if not better than boarding schools, too, and students who will do well wherever they are. It is my experience, however, that students from BS who go to schools such as Middlebury (schools that are quite good but more the destination for the middle of the BS pack) have no trouble whatsoever getting strong grades, because they too would be capable of doing the work at the Ivies. Everyone who gets into one of the top schools is capable of doing the work, but they may need to resist the temptations of college and revamp their study habits, etc. that weren’t problematic in high school before doing well.</p>
<p>I fully believe that the sample I have experienced so far at Brown is skewed to some extent, but I do stand by what I said before, primarily for the freshman year. It doesn’t happen with every student, but it does happen with enough to be noteworthy.</p>
<p>BS grads, as well as some public and private school grads, definitely have an advantage the first year or so in terms of actual work. There are a lot of intangibles that may last even longer. Many of my friends who went to public school were shocked when they got Bs. They were used to a system that as long as they worked hard they would get an A. BS grads are used to and expect to work for their grades. Does this last four full years? No, but freshman year still counts. For those looking to get into top law and medical programs, a bad freshman year could jeopardize those chances. </p>
<p>Certainly not all public school grads struggle in top colleges just as not all BS grads will excel. There are a very wide range of public schools and colleges know that. Boston Latin and the like shouldn’t necessarily be compared to other public schools. Colleges may believe that the students they admit are capable of doing the work, but that doesn’t mean they won’t struggle to do so. Classes aren’t mean to be easy and anyone can struggle whether they come from BS or public school. It’s just my observation and that of my friends that those who struggle and complain came from public schools who did little to prepare them for any college, let alone a top one.</p>
<p>This is not very scientific, but consider this for what its worth – do any of the parents here remember going to college (not community, but a four year) and having to take a freshman course that teaches you how to write and how to do research papers and generally how to study in college? This is whats happening at a lot of colleges now. They call these freshman seminars, etc, but what they are are remedial courses. Most kids who come out of high school, even the A students, need them. This is why a B BS student will get in to a college where PS kids are all A’s, since they have been taught how to write/research from early on. I think this is a pretty sad commentary on our public education.</p>