This Year's Safeties

Parents Forum
21

<p>Allow me to suggest the elitest game of
"Ranking the Safeties in the top 100 Colleges/Universities."
My D's safety school was Penn State. Received her
acceptance letter 12/01/04. She is going to
attend Bryn Mawr College because she did not
get into any of the Ivies. Therefore, The Ivies are
in the top 25 of the rankings, Bryn Mawr placed in
the top 50 and Penn State in the top 100.</p>

<p>Please rank your own safeties that are considered
to be in the top 100 Colleges/Universities.</p>

22

<p>I like the idea of "likely admit" instead of "safety". Nothing is safe any more. You can be rejected from schools where your stats are above the norm because they doubt you will enroll.</p>

<p>I am wrestling with this problem with my son. There is so much pressure to get into schools with "big" names. Everyone is inevitably affected by that. And, to be honest, if I had a magic wand, I would get my son into Chicago or Brown, which is where he most wants to go. </p>

<p>My son has worked hard in high school, compiling a 96.6% average and a solid list of ec's. He is first in his class, but his testing scores have never been as high as his performance in class. Like his parents, he is what I call a "terrified overachiever". (We both have doctorates, and my husband has a law degree.) He goes to a new private high school, solid academics but no name recognition and fewer ap's than larger schools. They had their first graduation this year and posted a map in the cafeteria. Every time someone got an acceptance it was pasted onto the map. Lots of acceptances to solid schools but it was the ones to Princeton, Stanford, Amherst, etc. that drew attention. How do you explain to your kid who is first in his class that he may or may not be able to get into the schools his parents attended (Brown, UVa., Emory--schools that he's heard about all his life), or ones of comparable ranking? He has worked as hard and has as much talent as I ever did.</p>

<p>But we have talked about the problem and at least reached the point that he's added some likely admits to his college list. The safeties we are visiting are these. I am using US News rankings.</p>

<p>Clark University - #74
American University - # 86
Muhlenberg College - #70 of the LACS</p>

<p>We are also considering U Pittsburgh (#66)</p>

<p>Both he and we want a certain level of Jewish support services so that rules out many schools, especially small and medium size. We have also been told by his counselor that, because of the 10% rule, he should get into UT Austin. We are grateful for that but are not sure if it is a match. He would prefer a smaller school and the honors programs there (Plan II, Deans scholars) are tough to get into, but we are investigating possibilities.</p>

<p>Our middle matches (#25-50) are U Rochester, Union College, and Brandeis. And we have plenty of reaches to look at!</p>

<p>I'd like to put in a plug for Kalamazoo College. It is my alma mater and frequently overlooked. It has innovative programs and is stong in the sciences. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the Jewish component that we are searching for.</p>

23

<p>calmom, good response in your post . Speaking only for my daughter, she may very well turn down her reaches and her matches for her safeties (two) because they both offer her something that her matches and reaches are unlikely to offer. For one it is significant guaranteed merit aid with a very reasonable chance at almost a full-ride leaving parental resources for med school and it's a school where she can play basketball. Her second safety, The HC of an OOS public, offers a rah-rah traditional big campus flagship feel in a very manageable size that she has not been able to duplicate anywhere. I woudn't be surprised if D chooses either one of them above all her other supposedly "better" choices.</p>

24

<p>The day after each hs graduation, our local paper prints the pictures of the top 5 kids from each class and where they are going to college. I was surprised this year to see so many kids going to what would be called safeties on cc; the obvious conclusion is they are following the money. Sure there are kids going to ivies etc but more are going to TCNJ on full or nearly full rides, Rutgers honors for the same reason, and to other schools that give large merit awards, like GW, BU, Villanova, UDel (honors). </p>

<p>For ever increasing numbers of families, financial safety ends up being the way to go.</p>

25

<p>Another reason to prefer "likely admit" to "safety". Around here the children have a rule that you can hit someone who passes gas unless they say "safety" before you hit them. As the children got into junior high "safety" became a verb as in "Someone safetied", a phrase my daughter used on the Paris Metro as well as a noun. This has of course become common knowledge among the adults and has provided a nice euphemism for us as well. You can imagine how as I was biting my lip during our session with the older daughter's GC. As he continued to bring up the subject of "safeties" I was wondering what the children from our neighborhood would think if they were listening to this conversation and what additional negative conotation would be added to a term that already carries some unnecessary negative baggage.</p>

26

<p>"Both he and we want a certain level of Jewish support services so that rules out many schools, especially small and medium size. He would prefer a smaller school and the honors programs there (Plan II, Deans scholars) are tough to get into, but we are investigating possibilities."</p>

<p>Might want to look at Ursinus. My step-sister-in-law is the Dean of the College, and also the faculty advisor to a very robust Hillel Association. Their strongest programs are pre-med (ranks with the Ivies), communications (pretty much corner the best internships in the Philadelphia area, other than those that come out of Annenberg), and accounting.</p>

<p>Shouldn't necessary confuse selectivity with undergraduate academic quality, either. H. may have the highest selectivity, but ranks 26th in student satisfaction with academic quality on the Consortium of Financing of Higher Education survey that the school itself administers. (Bryn Mawr quite likely ranks higher, as only four Consortium members ranked lower.)</p>

27

<p>Calmom,there is no question that for many students/families, merit aid can make a safety become a the destination of choice. And I do know of one friend of my son's that picked Oberlin over Princeton and Yale because of music opportunities afforded by its conservatory. So those are good examples of what you are suggesting. But, I'm simply saying for students who are very gifted and talented and desire to be surrounded by same, the necessary safety school generally (though of course, not always) entails a sense of compromise. While we, as parents, want to shield our kids from dissappointment, to ask those students to deny that reality during the application process feels disingenuous to me. Nevertheless, I do agree that putting a lot of energy into finding safeties that have some special desireable quality is time very well spent.</p>

28

<p>


Donemom, I don't believe anyone is misinterpreting your very "simply sa(id)" message. Some of us just don't agree with it, even for the very awesomely gifted and very fantastically talented..:) The school your son attends is not likely to meet my D's needs and the schools on her list probably won't meet his needs. That's the only ranking that is germane to the discussion.</p>

<p>Now if you are saying, and I hope you are not, that every "very gifted and talented" child automatically and naturally prefers more selective schools over schools with slightly less selectivity, well that is not "disingenuous", that's just delusional unless someone purposely taught them to think that way. Now don't get offended by my use of "delusional", as I was certainly not offended by your use of "disingenuous" to describe our "rationalizing". One powerful word deserves another, but that is also, JMO.</p>

<p>Look, we all have different ways of looking at this mess, And in my mind some folks think the race is over with the acceptance and the prizes are handed out . I think at the end of their college career if your kid ends up happy and fulfilled you did it right. That's our report card as I see it. Good luck on your journey.</p>

29

<p>Some disconnected thoughts:</p>

<p>I did some online research to find the best departments in an area where my daughter will likely major. I was looking at course selection, strength of faculty, breadth of course offerings and special study opportunities. I developed my own ranking system based on fairly objective criteria, since it was fairly easy to count up courses + profs - but I did include a fudge factor similar to US News in terms of giving a little extra weight to colleges with strong academic reputations - that was enough to keep U. of Chicago on top. Other than that I came up with a surprising list - #2 & #3 spots were programs at Ohio State & Indiana U; Berkeley was in #7 spot, with Columbia at #8, Northwestern & Georgetown at #11 & #12. Gave my daughter the list....</p>

<p>Discussed Ivies briefly with my daughter -- she wouldn't consider Harvard because she says the student satisfaction rate is so low. (She must have read the same survey you did, Mini) </p>

<p>My daughter is working on narrowing down choices from a list of about 30 -- but American U. is on her "for sure" list - she started filling out their app as soon as she received the catalog. Of course it is a likely admit for her. I mentioned something about possible lack of academic challenge there (Princeton Review assigns an Academic rating of 84) -- and she interrupted me, saying, "you know I always create my own challenge in anything I do". She's right - I can't count the number of times she has turned some minor school report or essay into a thesis-level project.</p>

<p>I feel kind of sorry for any kid who think that they are so specially gifted and talented that they need to be "surrounded by same" (in Donemom's words) ... I am guessing they have lived very sheltered lives. It comes sometimes from being segregated into g&t programs & private schools- they have the delusion that they are much smarter than they really are. I once went on a tour of a private school for gifted kids, to get a sense of what they were doing that was so much better than my kid's public school. We parents were brought into a 4th grade math classroom and a teacher announced - loudly to the whole class -- that we were there to see what they were doing because they were all so gifted and doing much more advanced work than kids do at regular schools. Unfortunately, it wasn't true - they weren't doing anything that my son hadn't done at the same age in his public school. I think these kids would have been in for a shock if they had rubbed elbows with the hoi polloi -- they were all very bright and engaged youngsters, but not nearly as special as they were being told they were. </p>

<p>The smartest and most amazing people I have met in my life often are not college grads -- many never had the opportunity. Some of the most obtuse people I have ever met are Ivy grads, including fellow students at the prestige law school I attended. There is a certain level of intellect where the person is very, very good at retaining and applying information received from what the person deems to be acceptable (established, prestigious) sources -- in school they were all very pleased to be "taught" by famous law profs. Unfortunately, people like this are often very quick to dismiss new & different ideas -- they are ready for received wisdom, not at all comfortable with a challenge to their ideas of what was given and certain. Life gets tougher when they get out of school and enter a world where innovation is highly valued. To the extent that intellectual segregation tends to limit exposure to ideas outside the norm... it is an unfortunate limitation. </p>

<p>Any large university has a lot of very smart kids. Some may be following the money as 2331clk suggests, but when it comes down to it - a large state university offers excellent opportunities and quality of education in its strongest departments. The courses are there, the profs are there - and plenty of other very smart kids are there, as well. And, when it comes down to it, "smart" also involves understanding basic concepts of economic value and long range planning to conserve resources.</p>

30

<p>There are 37,000 high schools in the US. That means 37,000 valedictorians and 37,000 salutatorians. If each of them thinks that anything less than HYPSMC (11,000 freshman spots) is beneath them, there's going to be alot of disappointed kids. </p>

<p>I feel very sorry for the families that can't see beyond the "top" schools. I think these kids are really missing out on some great opportunities and some really good fits. Look outside the box.</p>

31

<p>hmmm. I can see the value of many different perspectives. I'm not enamored of the safeties label but neither do I like "likely admit" for the same reasons curmudgeon mentioned, that is, fit. I'd like to bring back the expression best or good fit because it encompasses academics, social and geographical setting as well as financial affordability. </p>

<p>I don't know much about donemom's S except that, like mine, he will be going to Harvard, and like mine, he took Calculus as an 8th grader. I do know that my S has not led a sheltered life. We don''t have a gifted program in our state and our high school had heterogeneous classes for the first two years of his career there. Being in the same classes as students who could not read beyond 5th grade level made him value the college classes he took and the summer programs where he has been surrounded by people like himself or even smarter than himself. The only people who've told him, or rather me, he's gifted are some CC posters, btw. But his high school friends cover the gamut of academic abilities and interests, not to mention ethnicity and SES.</p>

<p>A large state university is a bit like our high school; it has a range of students with diverse interests and academic skills, from the struggling to the stellar. But large universities are not for everyone from the point of view of social fit. And, as we discovered, LACs don't always have the range of courses that a student needs. Identifying several schools that would be a good fit for our S2 (discounting the financial factor) turned out to be much harder than for our S1. He had a much wider range of top LACs to choose from because his interests in the humanities did not require access to graduate level courses. So I can empathize with Donemom's experience and viewpoint.</p>

32

<p>Kids who can take and do well in calculus in 8th grade, well, they really aren't nuts to think they have a great shot at HYPSM. And they aren't nuts to think that they will find a higher percentage of kids like themselves at these schools than elsewhere. That's how the system works. Anyway, I think the key here is what Donemom says.
[quote]
the necessary safety school generally (though of course, not always) entails a sense of compromise.

[/quote]
It's about the expectations set and the perceived fit. We as parents have a responsibility to set the expectations and provide data to help determine fit. For some kids, the best fit really would be HYPSMAWS...and yet the chances of admissions these days are really dreadful, so safeties should provide as good a fit as possible. Done well, the idea is that the safety will have characteristics that compensate for the perceived lessening of academic fit. And academics good enough that the actual academic fit will turn out to be wonderful.</p>

<p>I think the actual sense of compromise will depend on the perspective of the individual families. But almost no one can or should escape the safety issue.</p>

33

<p>Obviously, I came off snobbish, without meaning to. First of all, lets remember that we are talking about rock-solid safety schools, and getting your kid to fall in love with them. I was not referring to schools that would be a good fit for a student--both my kids had several schools on their lists that they felt they could be happy at, some were reaches, some were more in the range of likely admit, etc. And I was definitely not suggesting that you only meet bright kids at an ivy. But, for students who have worked so extremely hard through high school, and have achieved academically and in other areas, its understandable that they might not be able to be thrilled with their safety school. So many parents in this forum tell us this. They thrive in an environment where they are challenged, not just by professors, but by other students. They thrive when intellectual discussion is not seen as "uncool". They grow and develop character when they are humbled by others whose accomplishments are extraordinary...
Anyway...I'm not going to defend my son's choice of school, but let me assure you, he went to an extremely heterogeneous high school, has a wide range of friends, and is anything but sheltered in the way that is being suggested.</p>

34

<p>Donemom, </p>

<p>There is no need at all to defend your son's choice of school. You and he should be happy as h*** and I am sure you are. This forum is really wonderful for the degree of advice and support available. We have to be able to support and cheer for the families sending kids off to Harvard as much as anyone else. And if we are doing our jobs well and have just our fair share of luck our kids are off to schools that are a good fit for them, whether for specific majors, geography, financial considerations, academics, sports, whatever. Kids may not all get into their first choice schools but they ought to be able to go somewhere they will get a good education and be happy. Whether with a period of disappointment following the decisions or not. </p>

<p>I wish you and your son nothing but the absolute best. </p>

<p>Alu</p>

35

<p>I should have written LEARN to love your safety (or sure bet, or certain admit, or less selective) as it’s certainly an acquired taste. I would be disingenuous to the extreme if I didn’t disclaim that I’m very happy that my son got into his first choice, a superselective LAC. I wish all kids and families such a happy ending to their college search. I accept that it’s human nature to rank and that “8 first choices” (Joyce whatshername, I can’t remember) while a nice sentiment, is not likely to happen.</p>

<p>BUT (who knows, really?) I believe that my son -- and his parents -- would have been equally happy had he ended up at any of the three less selectives on his list because
1. He had visited, interviewed and maintained contact with people closely associated with schools. He could picture himself there. He knew kids like him thrived there. The course offerings excited him.
2. They are simply put, great schools, with great teachers. There is documentable proof that the kids are happy and go on to all kind of wonderful lives.</p>

<p>We put a LOT of effort into researching and visiting these less selectives, a lot more than the for the elites which were so easy to love. And for me it was critically important. I’m a worrier and wouldn’t have had a wink of sleep had my son not been reasonably assured of getting in to at least one school on his list that he was really, really enthusiastic about. (And we weren’t even in the running for financial aid!)</p>

<p>Last summer my son attended a program with a group of kids from The Evergreen College. I don’t know much about Evergreen except that it has a quirky but intellectually appealing curriculum and a 95% (really!) acceptance rate. My son’s comment: These kids are just as smart as Williams kids except they had better things to do in high school than study. :)</p>

<p>Parents, kids, if you go into the search for less-selectives determined to be disappointed then you will for sure. I know the whole system is geared toward the schizophrenic – especially ED: Love your first choice with all your heart and soul but have a plan B. Give your first choice(s) your best shot, go for the super reaches. But buy into the insurance concept. </p>

<p>PS I like WASP for Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore/Pomona. It’s a joke, a joke!</p>

36

<p>Momrath - I think the reason this topic makes me so impassioned is that while my D also got into a selective college, we didn't do the safety thing well at all. We actually had a GC advise us that she had the best chance of getting into Harvard!!! because of my family history there. And although she really wanted a school that was approximately 5-7,000 people, we defaulted to the UCs as safeties, Cal and UCSB. We were dumb dumb dumb about safeties, not taking the route of looking for safeties that matched the profile of the first choice.</p>

<p>So I always think There but for the grace of whoever go I. Thanks for posting this. You should post it again in September when everyone gears up...</p>

37

<p>Alumother--thanks so much for your kind words! (and best for luck to your's as well!!!)
and Momrath--you encompassed what I was trying to get at so much better than I did. Thanks for clarifying your point!</p>

38

<p>I just wanted to lend a little support to Donemom's POV, from a student's perspective. My safeties were UVA, NYU, and CMU. I knew they were all wonderful schools in their own right, and truly loved different aspects of each (felt very at home in UVA, loved NYC and Stern biz school, drawn to CMU's quirkiness). But if I had to go to one, I would still feel disappointed.</p>

<p>It's not that I think I am smarter than the other students there. Far from it; I know there are brilliant students that are brighter than me at each one. It's just that there would be this sense of "Why did I work so hard these past four (ok, three for me) years?" I would've felt like those late nights doing physics problem sets or studying for calc so I could squeak out those A's would have been for naught.</p>

39

<p>Someone who is more internet savvy than I should find an article written a few years ago about the Harvard Development Office's strategy for alumni giving; apparently, a high percentage of Harvard alums lead perfectly normal, average lives, and the only distinctive thing they've ever done is to be admitted to, and attend, Harvard. </p>

<p>There are smart kids who end up in these super-hard to get admitted schools who peak at age 20; there are kids who flounder in community college who end up achieving greatness; there are kids who graduated from ordinary State U. who are deans and professors at a wide range of universities. I personally think you are doing your kids a disservice if you link the hard work they put into high school to college admissions.... first because the linkage doesn't always work, and second, because we don't live in a society which rewards hard work in such a direct way. Unless your kids internalize what they do and why they do it, they will be set up for great disappointments down the road.</p>

<p>Kid is a fantastic student and thrives in an intellectual environment? Great-- there are probably 80 colleges in the US that would foster that. To somehow communicate that "oh you worked hard in HS, poor baby, only Harvard will do" is going to lead to a lot of heart-ache later in life... even if, or especially if, your kid is lucky enough to get to Harvard.</p>

<p>My own theory on why H ranks so low on student satisfaction is just that.... it's tough being 19 or 20 years old when everyone (including your own professors and institution) keep reinforcing that you're at the tippy top of the heap, it must be tough to be happy 24/7, especially when ordinary life keeps intruding.</p>

<p>Me-- I don't have that problem. I went to a lesser ranked institution, felt grateful every single day to have such a wonderful opportunity to learn and grow, and am thankful every day since then to have been given such a gift. Maybe teaching our kids to value the sacrifices made by taxpayers, alumni, and ordinary generous folks who make a university education possible, is a better way to reward the hard work through high school that prepares them for college.</p>

40

<p>Wow...this thread is full of insightful posts! Momrath, you are dead-on with your advice...it should be the tag line for CC admissions. I'm certainly not a parent, but as a soon-to-be senior, I can tell you that it is difficult for some CCer's (including me, though this has woken me up) to pick a "likely admit" because we have been exposed to the "big names" all of our lives and have furthermore been told that we have a decent shot at them. And then you get into the list of over 3000 schools and everything goes downhill, but that's only IMHO.</p>

<p>EM</p>