This Year's Safeties

Parents Forum
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<p>Donemom, I believe your post clearly stated what you believe, and as to the compliment on my choice of screenname, thank you. :) I try my best. If you desire to continue with your gratuitous personal attacks on me , I am willing to listen to them (attack my big feet, I'm very sensitive about them ) but let's do it in PM's so as not to rile the more adult posters.</p>

<p>As to your beliefs about post secondary educational institutions and the perceived vs. real value of the most prestigious institutions, I believe we may be as far apart as anybody on this board. I do in fact champion many schools I believe you may dismissively categorize as "rock-solid safeties" and do believe that a superior education for equally talented kids can be found outside the usual suspects. Not equal. Superior. I would have no way of knowing where you draw the line of "rock solid safeties". It appears it is somewhere below Chicago, well then - is it Vanderbilt, or Wash U, how about Kenyon? Tell us and we'll discuss it and I won't make a mistake like that again. Muhlenberg? Penn State Honors?</p>

<p>And as to what is or is not provable, the oft cited list of per capita Phds from each UG that I think you can find on Reed's website is a good place to start.</p>

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<p>Hey, we're rolling now. Marite welcome back. I miss you. Don't you dare leave, the occasional P.M. isn't enough.</p>

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<p>Marit</p>

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<p>curmudgeon: The quality of a college education can be measured in a myriad of ways, and I don't doubt that one can make a good case for a top knotch education at a vast number of institutions "outside the usual suspects". And a safety school is an individual designation for individuals---its just that the ones you mentioned in that previous post ARE THE USUAL SUSPECTS, ---highly selective, so they don't have anything to do with a discussion of safety schools for anyone, IMHO.
And I'm sure I can't convince you, but its not a question of me being dismissive of any PARTICULAR school at all, but rather my empathizing with students who feel less than enthusiastic about THEIR PERCEIVED SAFETY school, when they had some other vision for themselves (justified or not).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
You really think that there aren't a larger percentage of "kindred spirits" academically at HYPSAWSP than at some place let's say 20 circles to the right?

[/quote]
It's not about percentages, it is about raw numbers, keeping in mind that no one really has or needs to have 150 closest personal friends. In the end, big college or small, a typical kid will end up with a very small group of friends he or she spends a good deal of time with, a larger group of casual acquaintances for occasional conversations. Deep, probing conversation outside of class tends to take place in small groups. Most colleges have places where kids who like to intellectualize tend to hang out -- a favored cafe or spot near the library, for example. Harvard probably does have more such spots... but its hard for any one kid to be in more than one such place at the same time. </p>

<p>There will be smarter kids in more advanced classes than in basic, core classes. The kid who has worked his tail off in high school taking AP's will probably start out with advanced standing, having placed out of all those core courses -- so he'' meet other smart kids in his classes, and will never even meet the kids who are enrolled in what is essentially remedial English (called "Subject A" in the UC system). </p>

<p>Colleges have all sorts of regularly scheduled events, some of which are very heady and intellectual, such as lectures in theoretical physics ... and some of which are geared toward getting drunk, such as frat parties -- and a whole spectrum of activities falling somewhere in between. There are all sorts of campus organizations, many which are focused on academics; and most large less selective colleges also have honors programs. The student who chooses to join the debate team and makes it a point to attend various offerings in the school's lecture series in his spare time is not going to be at a loss for "kindred spirits". Admittedly, the student who involved in athletics may find that his teammates on the school track team are not nearly as intellectual as the kids running for Harvard... but then again, his fellow runners are "kindred spirits" of a different sort.</p>

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<p>
[Quote]
But going to school with 20-40,000 other students was a daunting proposition

[/quote]
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[quote]
But all those students are not in the math department! The kid who has taken calculus in 8th grade and is pursuing a math major is going to place right out of the basic lower division courses -- the ones with hundreds of students - and that kid will also quickly draw attention to himself in a way that will open up some other opportunities. I mean, the faculty does tend to notice who their most gifted students are.</p>

<p>I think that people who have not attended large universities might have an unreasonable fear, in the same sense that small towners might feel intimidated by a big city.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's precisely the issue. It has nothing to do with being top of the heap. My S is as daunted by big universities as he is by big cities. The size of the math department is not a concern except insofar as it has the courses he would want to take. Nor is he concerned about the size of classes. He has been in some that had 200 students. Of course, he enjoyed the smaller classes more, but he did not mind the larger ones. But college is about more than classes. And a social scene encompassing 20-40, 000 students is different from one that encompasses 5-6,000 students, and different again from one that includes fewer than 2,000. </p>

<p>Students from CA are probably far more receptive to the idea of going to a larger university, and thus better prepared as well, than are students from the East Coast who are surrounded by mid-sized universities and LACs.</p>

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<p>Digmedia:</p>

<p>Wasn't there a rule about not speaking of religion or politics at mealtime in order to avoid indigestion-provoking controversy? I am not going to get involved in those threads in the cafe. Alas, since I don't drink and cannot distinguish between a Manhattan and a margarita, I cannot really loiter in Sin Alley either. :)</p>

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<p>Let me help, marite. One too many manhattans and you abuse the maid. One too many margaritas and you go home with a cowboy (or cowgirl).;)</p>

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<p>Marite, you may be right that students from California are more receptive to the idea of large universities -- I honestly don't have a clue. (I attended school in California and have settled here, but I came from Texas... but the schools are big in Texas, too. In Texas everything is big, and "big" is generally equated with "best" ). </p>

<p>But you are mistaken in understanding the "social scene" of 20,000-40,000 students. The thing is, they don't all get invited to the same parties at the same time. I lived in a dorm with 200 students. First I met my roomate, then I met the girls in the room next door, we met a few across the hall, then we ventured downstairs to meet some boys. After a couple of weeks we had a regular cohort of about a dozen kids who hung out together, ate meals together. The girls that I met the first week were the same ones I roomed with off campus the following year. There were some changes over time, but when I attended a reunion a few years ago, it was still basically the same old crowd. We all found each other again via the internet. Heck, some of the kids even ended up married to each other. The social network consisted of our friends, and our friends' friends - it grew somewhat over time, but we're still talking about a relatively small group. It was actually less intimidating than the social network at my high school -- which was a traditional high with maybe 2000 students -- because in high school people cared about who you knew and who you hung out with. At the university no one cared or paid attention to those sorts of things -- you just hung out with the friends you made. My first year I met very few kids outside my own dorm -- most social events were centered around the dorm itself. </p>

<p>So I don't doubt that your son felt intimidated by the prospect. I'm just saying that he was intimidated by an idea that has little relation to the reality of life on a large campus. If he had ended up at a large university, I'm sure it wouldn't have taken very long to get over the fear and become comfortable -- we had some kids in my dorm who came from very small towns and they ended up making plenty of friends and doing well. </p>

<p>I doubt there really is much difference between social scenes at a college with 5,000 students as compared to a college with 20,000. When you are at 5,000 or 15,000 or 40,000 - you are in a place where there are many events, and no one attempts to go to all of them -- people gravitate to whatever interests them most. 5,000 is as impossibly large to deal with as 20,000 - just in the same way that life in a city of 300,000 people is not all that different than life in a city of 2 million, except that traffic tends to be worse in the larger city. </p>

<p>There may be a big difference at a college with less than 2,000, simply because that is an environment with less choice, and one where everyone is likely to cross paths at the same very limited options or events. (Though my son has managed to now meet a young man here on the west coast who was at the same very small east coast LAC that he attended (around 1200 students) at the same time he was -- but they never met. He met at work - they both are now employed at the same place. Small world.)</p>

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<p>calmom, I think there are differences between 30,000 and 5,000. There are differences in red tape, access, and intimacy. Some of it is not social intimidation but rather these kinds of things.</p>

<p>Also, I think the thing a smaller school can do well is to have a 'culture.' Some people don't want a set culture but others do. When a kid wants a smorgasbord, they'll want a big school.</p>

<p>Re Marite's point about the schock of no longer being the top student--
I was the opposite-- I was a 95+ kid who was THRILLED to find myself off the top of the heap in college! Some high achievers are sick of the limelight and are happy to blend in to the wall paper when they get the chance. I loved that my school was full of people brighter than I, I felt so much happier being in the middle. Then again, I was not the H type ;).</p>

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<p>I don't know about this kindred spirits thing, but I can pass along anecdotal evidence.</p>

<p>The son of a friend taught at Harvard and teaches currently at USC (Trojans, not South Carolina). He found the class discussions scintillating-- a substantial number of the kids in his class were so amazing. He finds the same quality of students in his USC classes, but no more than a couple in any one class. Doesn't make for the same kind of class in spirit.</p>

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<p>Hello to Marite!! Welcome back after your walk-a-bout.</p>

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<p>SBMom - I think you are right about the red tape and bureaucracy - it can be intimidating at first. But if I compare my big U. experience with my son's LAC experience 30 years later ... the difference is that there was a lot more freedom and flexibility at the the university, mainly because there was alway someone to talk to to get around any "rule"- if one person said "no" there was bound to be someone else in the office who might say "yes" - and the right hand never knew what the left was doing. The big contrast was dealing with the housing office.. things were so much easier for me when it came to room changes and the like. </p>

<p>Sometimes its an advantage to be at a place where everyone knows your name.... and sometimes its a distinct advantage to be somewhere where no one has a clue as to who you are or where you belong.</p>

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<p>I am moving this away from Harvard/Not Harvard! We could go around and around.....</p>

<p>Calmom, I think that is so true. I was always a big school person. I didn't mind having classes where I couldn't see the prof's face; it was a long way from the back row of the auditorium to the stage. I was having too much fun outside of class! As it was, I ended up not graduating until 10 years later. But if I had to do it over again, I would do it the same way. I am a great student now....I have been back to school two more times and I have got my 4.0 to show for both times.</p>

<p>Now, my son knows about my wayward ways and he has chosen small over big; tight academics and all that entails. They say generations kind of flip-flop. Last night, we went out for our final dinner at home and I was saying how he could have a great life working in the overseas symphony orchestras, teaching on the side etc. like some of his present teachers. It is a great and exciting life. He looked up at me and said something that I don't think I will ever forget. "I have other plans..I don't want to do that." "What do you mean," I said. "I have higher aspirations." "O.K., " I said. </p>

<p>I'll keep my big mouth shut. He's off!</p>

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<p>Calmom:</p>

<p>Let's call it the Goldilocks factor.</p>

<p>If you've lived in a suburb or a small town all your life, life in a big city can be daunting. My S, who has lived in Boston/Cambridge all his life finds the scale here just right: not too big and not too small, but just right. A mid-sized university feels the same to him: not too big and not too small, but just right. Different strokes for different folks. That's why I suggested using best or good fit rather than likely admit or safety.</p>

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<p>Marite,</p>

<p>Welcome back. Both of my kids have expressed a strong preference for the small college experience (less than 5,000 students), but I notice that this is cuased by their consternation when they visit the big campuses for the first time...they think they will be lost in the sea of kids. Having attneded a few big schools myself, I think this feeling does pass, but I understand that they have it.</p>

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<p>I know my D wanted a midsize school for some pretty sound reasons. Not small - it looked to her like she had done that already in high school. Not too big - although she would find a social group, she actually wanted an institution that would be small enough to get her arms around. So I think sometimes there are good reasons to have a school size opinion that are worth supporting.</p>

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<p>Let me throw in another criterion: weather.</p>

<p>Can my S really be the only one mentioned on CC who prefers NE weather to CA's endless summer? True, he has not actually experienced CA but he did say so in the middle of the longest winter we've had for a while. It was in response to my suggesting that Palo Alto weather might be better than the endless snow and rain we were having. For similar reasons, Duke and Rice, which both have great math programs, were down on his list. S1, with a different constitution, pronounced Dartmouth, Cornell, Williams, Rochester, etc... too cold, and headed two hours south of here.</p>

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<p>Sounds like we're talking about two different things: likelihood of admission AND the likelihood that the student will be happy in the environment. So I still like "likely admit" versus "safety" -- but the goal is to find strong matches (geography, weather, size, political environment, greek presence, etc.) among the likely admits (as well as the targets and the reaches!</p>

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<p>Iderochi,
[quote]
the goal is to find strong matches (geography, weather, size, political environment, greek presence, etc.) among the likely admits (as well as the targets and the reaches!

[/quote]
Well put.</p>