This Year's Safeties

Parents Forum
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<p>NJ res and Speedo,</p>

<p>Thanks so much for your differing opinions. As much as we love Texas (and we do), our family is not "typical" Texan. Our family hails from the northeast, as do most of the families in the small Jewish school where my son attends; we visit out east frequently and my S feels at home. So we'll have a look at Muhlenberg and see.</p>

<p>Know thyself. How true! That can mean different things to different families. Sometimes a family is searching for unique characteristics in a school that go beyond the usual like size, campus culture, academic curriculum. We are a good example of that. One of the important factors for my D would be the strength of services for students with mild learning disabilities. For my S, it is the availabaility of Jewish support services. He needs/wants a campus that has Friday evening/Saturday morning services (at least within 2 miles) plus kosher food for Passover. This outweighs other criteria. So our list of schools may look "odd" or mismatched to others, since it is tied together by an unspoken requirement that is unique to our S.</p>

<p>It has been searching for the "likely admits" where it's been most difficult to find what we're looking for in this respect. Lots of solid state universities (and we are considering some), but he prefers a smaller campus so we're visiting Muhlenberg and Clark.</p>

<p>So "Know thyself" is wise advice. The search for "likely admit" or ANY admit really starts with the questions you raise. If you don't ask the right questions....what's right for your own S or D, you're unlikely to come up with a comfortable match.</p>

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<p>Cami-
I have a friend who is a HS college counselor at a Solomon Schechter school in the NE, so may have some suggestions for you with respect to schools you might consider. If you PM me with specifics, I'll be happy to pick her brain for you. My former neighbor (jewish) and one of my former grad school roommates (non-Jewish) both attended Muhlenberg at the same time many moons ago (small world). Both had very good experiences. </p>

<p>How long have you been in Tx? I am a transplanted northerner, now in the SE. My s. is at Rice. Even though he is a non-Texan, and the school is only about 10% (at most) Jewish, he's loved it and couldn't be happier. He has several friends who are very active in Hillel at the U. of Maryland. Is that school too big for your son, or is it in the running? Ditto for American. Let me know if I can help.</p>

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<p>Cami, Since you will be visiting Muhlenberg, I'd also recommend a visit to Goucher for your son. They have excellent support services for Jewish students, including a kosher kitchen and an active on campus schedule of Jewish services. I believe that the school's chaplain is actually a rabbi as well. Goucher also has a very high percentage of jewish students. Great school, nice all-around academics, just outside of baltimore so easy access and cheap flights from most of the country.
On par with Muhlenberg and Clark in terms of admissions selectivity as well.</p>

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<p>


Yes - that is pretty much what my son said. He chose a small LAC for the small, seminar like classes and basically found it was not as great as he expected. Not so much that the same people dominated, more like the discussions ended up being on a fairly predictable path. A few weeks in, once he got to know everyone, he pretty much knew what they were going to say before they opened their mouth. And even if the prof was brilliant, a lot of the discussion ended up being prosaic. The kids were bright and engaged, but bottom line -- they were 19-year-old's living on a small college campus -- what they had to say was often not nearly as interesting as what a brilliant prof. might be saying in a lecture. Its not that the experience was bad -- just that it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be.</p>

<p>I think dstark's law professor friend might be right - that the ideal class size is 35-45. I certainly found that to be true for myself both in college & law school. I was in seminar classes as small as 6 or 8 students, but it was hard to keep discussion going in that context - and we did tend to get very bored of one another over time. But discussion always tended to be livelier and more varied when there were 40 in the classroom -- on any given day there would only be a handful of active participants, but it would be different people and it was also somewhat more of a casual shift between professor lecturing and discussion. That is, if the discussion wasn't going anywhere, it seemed much more natural for the prof to shift back into lecture mode.</p>

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<p>cami215, I didn't know you were Jewish, but I understand Mule has a strong Jewish presence and I think even a jewish fraternity. I have visited Mule several times and it's a great little LAC. My daughter received a very generous fin aid package, but felt it was a little too small and too close to home - the campus felt confining but I think the description "Penn Lite" is pretty accurate.</p>

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<p>I will be a high school senior this upcoming year, and I would like to share my method of selecting the colleges I will be applying to. Momrath makes a great point by mentioning that we should 'love our safety', and I certaintly love mine, sometimes I'm scared I might like it too much. But here's my approach to selecting my college list...</p>

<p>I live in Florida, so our Public University system might not be as great as California's or Michigan's, but it is still a pretty decent one. I am eligible for our in-state 'Bright Futures Scholarship' which gives me a education that is essentially free and guaranteed for all four years. The default pick in our system, and the school consider as the 'best' by far, is the University of Florida, and its probably where I will attend if I stay in-state... what does this have to do with anything you might ask? Well the guidelines/requirements that the other colleges on my list have to meet are relative to the opportunities or advantages I am offered by UF. For a school to crack my list it has to meet the following requirements: </p>

<p>1) I need to have a reasonable shot at the school. </p>

<p>That means having the grades most admitted students have, being at least in the 25th percentile as far as SAT scores (I'm an URM, so I think even in the 25th percentile I have a decent shot).</p>

<p>2) Financial aid must be good, and I mean good. </p>

<p>I can go to UF essentially for free, and I dont plan to get myself in debt with my bachelor's degree since I plan to go to grad school. Do not discard a school for its financial aid, but be wary and aware of what it can offer. If you dont plan to pay for school or end up in debt, why would you even bother to apply to a school like say NYU, with horrible financial aid?</p>

<p>3) I would rather go to that school than the UF. </p>

<p>I prefer to answer this question before even bothering to complete an application, because there is no point of applying if im going to turn them down anyway, so I want to clarify, if the school is on my college list I prefer it over UF. The school's I selected in my college list I prefer over UF for different reasons including the school's student body (very important), the strength of their programs in my major (Economics/International Relations), the college's mission/beliefs and how these resemble my own, and my own personal subjectivity (I prefer small schools in large cities, i like nice campuses/dorms, decent social scen, diversity is important to me, warm climate... but I've given up on that last one, lol) This varies from person to person, for example location (east coast/midwest/west coast) is very important to some, I dont really care. This depends on you and only you... trust your gut feeling, and select a place where you think you're going to feel happy.</p>

<p>So based on these 3 basic guidelines I gave myself, my college is down to 8 schools, and 4 other ones I have in a status I call "stand by", which means I might or might not apply to these for different reasons. It's a potpurri with different sizes, Universities and Liberal Arts Colleges, different locations, etc. but they all meet my 3 reqs. and I loved them from different reasons... unlike some people I feel excited about too many schools, as opposed to a single one. Some of them are well-known and considered top schools by most people here (Penn, Georgetown, CMC) other selective school but not quite, lets say my safe-matches (BC, Mac, GWU) and a couple of other schools I consider safeties (American University, University of Richmond). My "stand-bys" are Wesleyan, Haverford, Grinnell, the University of Miami and sigh... Standford, which would break rule #1, you cant be so pragmatic you know, thats why these are gudielines not rules.</p>

<p>I think my guideline can be useful to people in a similar situation to mine. Aim for reaches, but dont forget to value your safeties just as much. I certainly do. Hopefully all the applications to these safety schools ends-up being a waste of time, but dont forget they can save your behind.</p>

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<p>speedo,</p>

<p>Yes, Mule does have some interesting possibilities. The student body is almost 30 percent Jewish. There are 4 synagogues within a short walk from campus, and the school has a special center for Holocaust Studies. The college even closes down on Yom Kippur. Plus, a distance that's "too close" for your D is nice and far away for my S!</p>

<p>carolyn, </p>

<p>I've thought seriously about Goucher. (My S. would probably love having so many female classmates!) However, I spoke with the head of the Hillel, and he indicated they don't have conservative or orthodox services on Sunday, and there's no synagogue in walking distance. Too bad, as there were many things about the school I liked. I am going to keep the college in mind for the future since my D's needs and preferences are slightly different than my S. </p>

<p>jym626 -</p>

<p>I'll definitely send you a p.m. tomorrow to let you know what we're already looking at. Perhaps you friend will have additional ideas.</p>

<p>Yes, UMd has wonderful options for Jewish students. His preference, though, is for a small to mid-sized school, if that is possible. We have found many solid state schools (and even a few larger private ones) that meet our search criteria. It's the smaller institutions that are harder to find.</p>

<p>Glad your S. is enjoying Rice. It's a beautiful campus. I use the library there frequently We've been here for about 25 years now but still have friends and family out east. We would consider Rice as a school but it's our understanding that it's even tougher to get in from the city, and I'm sure my son would like to try his wings a little!</p>

<hr>

<p>Again, thanks everyone for the idea and comments.</p>

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<p>Cami-I know that the University of Miami has a very active Hillel and I remember one of the tour guides mentioned that the convenience store on campus stocks kosher foods. I know wish<em>it</em>was<em>april checked out the Hillel during her visit to the campus and was very happy with her findings. Here is a link to the Chabad on campus <a href="http://www.chabadum.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.chabadum.org/&lt;/a> and wish</em>it<em>was</em>april's review <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=35600&highlight=hillel%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=35600&highlight=hillel&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>Cami - Have you visited the Hillel Website? (Forgive me if I'm repeating advice that already has been given.) They have a wonderful section called "Guide to Student Life." You can type in a particular college and find out, for example, the size of the Jewish population at the school (give or take some amount since it's self-reporting), whether there's a Hillel on campus or nearby, whether kosher food is available, how many Jewish studies courses are offered, etc., etc. Or, you can simply type in what you're looking for in a particular category - e.g., looking for school that offers kosher meals 24/7, and the site will spit out a list of schools that meet that criterion.
Also, don't be quick to write off small schools - even those located in Podunk USA - without doing some investigation; I think you'll be (pleasantly) surprised at what you'll find!</p>

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<p>My older one would've been in bad shape without safeties. He got dinged from all seven of his reaches. Went to one of his safeties with a substantial scholarship. After one year, transferred to one of the very same reaches that had rejected him a year before. You never know what curve balls you'll be thrown.</p>

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<p>Jledavalle -- great post and great suggestions. Thank you for sharing.</p>

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<p>Cami-
I sent my friend a preliminary note, asking about smaller safeties with services and kosher meals. Her first 2 suggestions were U of Hartford and Touro. If you PM me with your s's stats, she can offer some additional ideas. Hope this helps.</p>

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<p>Cami-
Reading your postings gives me a feeling a deja vu for my daughters' college search. The Jewish life on campus was extremely important to her resulting in us looking at schools that other people may not have considered as having things in common. She also preferred a relatively small school - something that made the search for an active sizeable Jewish presence all the harder.</p>

<p>The Hillel site is a great place to start - But it is just a starting point. We found you had to be very careful in terms of not taking things as face value and asking a ton of follow up questions (although the Hille site is updated yearly, things change and it is only a brief summary, so it may not give a full view of what is really going on at the school). For example:</p>

<p>We found schools that were listed on the Hillel site as having some "kosher" facility - when all the school had was a kosher kitchen in a Hillel building available for students to cook their own meal.</p>

<p>We found schools that were listed as having Shabbat services that turned out to have them relatively infrequently. </p>

<p>Also never take things at face value - ask questions. At one school, we were told that although there were no on-campus services, students went to local synagogues. Well we then asked the follow-up question - HOW MANY students did this, and WHICH synagogues did they attend - it turned out none went to the syangogue my daughter would have preferred (Conservative) and only a few went to others.</p>

<p>Don't just look at the list of Hillel (Jewish Union) activities - ask how many students actually attend these events on a regular basis! Don't assume that because a school has a high number or high percentage of Jewish students that it means there are a large number of students who participate in these activities. </p>

<p>We found that Clark Univ had a very active Hillel for the size school. Boston Universtiy was building an amazing new Hillel building and had a great Jewish life, but my daughter hated the huge size and urban campus. Have you looked at Univ of Delaware? I see you have U of Rochester on your list - often a safety school for those with higher dreams - make sure you really know what a Rochester winter can be like and that your son would be ready for it!! </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>Cami-
one more thing - you say you aren't considering Goucher because they don't have conservative or orthodox services on Sunday (I assume you mean Saturday?)
In general - we found it much more common for schools to have Friday night services than Saturday morning services - yes a few do have both, but it simply isn't that common - the nature of dealing with college kids and trying to schedule anything for a weekend morning! You need a really decent size Jewish population to support a Saturday morning service - it may be very hard to find at a smaller campus.<br>
So if that is the only reason you took Goucher off the list, you may want to reconsider - or mayber your son will be willing to reconsider once you and he start to get an idea of what other schools have to offer. (We never got to visited Goucher - but it was "on the list" of colleges we'd have looked at more closely if my daughter hadn't gotten in ED).</p>

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<p>I am really glad to see the Jewish thing being brought up, as that is a consideration for my D also. Her list includes UPenn, Brown, Brandeis, Emory, WUSTL.</p>

<p>I'm not sure if these schools were mentioned yet as safeties for top students: Tulane, UMiami & UF which all have strong Jewish presence. We are in state for UF and they also offer incredible merit aid for top students.</p>

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<p>Speaking of Goucher, my D had applied there as her safety, and ended up being waitlisted at three schools. Long story short - we had to deposit $500 - a large sum of money,in my opinion (it's non-refundable and that does not include a housing deposit - that's separate) just to hold her spot only to find out about a week later that she had been taken from one of the waitlists. We then had to send a $300 deposit to her waitlist school. So buyer beware - make sure that when you send the deposit in that you're definitely planning on attending - otherwise, the deposit will be lost. I'm still trying to figure out what they're doing with the money - they said that it was an enrollment deposit and that it goes towards tuition, if the student attends.</p>

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<p>NYUmom - the same would have applied to any college -- a state u might have a smaller deposit, but I think $500 is pretty much standard. Goucher didn't do anything unfair to you -- they told you the refund was nonrefundable; your daughter is the one who changed her mind after confirming her enrollment. I mean, its not Goucher's fault that your daughter was using them as a safety- colleges don't provide a place on their form to check "Safety only - I don't really want to come here if I can avoid it". </p>

<p>Congratulations to your daughter for getting into her waitlist school. I guess if she didn't want to attend Goucher you should have simply turned them down instead of holding a space, and taken the risk that your daughter might not have had a place in the fall if the waitlist school didn't come through. </p>

<p>And what are they doing with the money? Helping to make up for the shortfall they have in enrollment from all of the people who think that its a convenient to use them as a safety - Goucher is one school that came up short on yield at the end of admissions season.</p>

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<p>The schools who are running these waitlists are the ones who should be responsible for informing the applicants in a timely manner. It's unethical for a school to expect an applicant to be able to make an informed decision without viewing all of the available options - and in this case, it wasn't D's fault that she was waitlisted. She didn't ask the schools to that - they did it on their own. She was pressured to respond by the school and by her guidance counselor. I really disapprove that Goucher charges so much for a deposit, and I was very resistant to sending the deposit to them in the first place, because I knew that it was non-refundable, but there are schools that do refund enrollment deposits, and by the way, the schools that we've encountered (and some of them are major players), do not charge such a hefty amount. By the way, D wasn't "using" them as a safety, as you say. She was just following the instructions of her high school guidance counselor .</p>

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<p>I should mention that Goucher had the deposit for not more than 2 weeks before they were informed about the waitlist acceptance. We did our part by informing them in a timely manner (meaning asap) so they could offer the spot to another deserving student. Also, there are still openings for freshman according to the nacac website.</p>

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<p>If it was May 1st, then the deposit was due. Goucher offered your daughter a space in their class - you could have declined. If you wanted it held open on May 2nd, then you had to pay $500 for that privilege. </p>

<p>Sorry, I really feel that you are in the wrong to expect that Goucher or any other college should be left in the position of not being able to finalize their class list waiting on some other college. If you didn't like the amount of the deposit, you had a choice. </p>

<p>Basically kids who put down deposits at schools to "hold places" and then go elswhere are making a mess for everyone else -- the colleges do expect a certain amount of attrition, but schools like Goucher end up on the short end of the stick while more selective schools have the flexibility to play around with long waitlists. If I were running Goucher or any other similar college I'd set a very high deposit. A low amount just encourages some families to make multiple deposits if their kids can't make up their minds. </p>

<p>You are right that there are still openings for
Goucher on the nacac web site - that is exactly the problem. Goucher admits around 2/3 of the kids who apply - they expect a certain percentage of those kids to enroll. When their yield falls short it hurts everything in their budget -- they still have to pay their staff & faculty, mantain their buildings, and follow through on commitments for financial aid whether or not the expected tuition dollars come in. The "timely manner" for you to inform them was May 1st. 2 weeks later is not "timely". </p>

<p>If you made the deposit earlier, then it was bad advice from your GC. There is no reason to do a deposit to any school before the May 1st deadline.</p>