"Those ECs are weak...."- So what's good?

Chance Me / Match Me!
601

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<p>Completely agree with this post from nil desperandum.</p>

<p>Northstarmom, while the ECs that you listed are exceptional, people should not be deluded into thinking that they need to accomplish these things, or things of this caliber, in order to get into an elite college. For a HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT to accomplish several of those things (e.g. research published in an academic journal, AND be captain of a varsity sport, AND have state awards in math/science/whatever) is EXTREMELY rare, and for this type of kid to get into an Ivy, s/he also must be at the top of their class with great test scores. Do you think the majority of Ivy League students fit this type of ungodly profile? I can tell you that they don’t, and I saw an MIT student in another post echo my sentiment.</p>

<p>This type of student is extremely rare, and I hope that the kids on here who hope to get into a great/Ivy League school because of all the hard work they have done throughout their 4 years of high school & beyond do not feel discouraged because they have not achieved a handful of such high-caliber accomplishments. Even among kids from urban/suburban regions, these types of extreme accomplishments, while great to have, are by no means required or characteristic of the general Ivy League student.</p>

<p>As a current Ivy League student (Penn), I can say that I know very few, if any, fellow students who have accomplished several of those “great” ECs. </p>

<p>Take myself for example. I am a non-URM from New York who went to a private high school (one of the least favorable situations to be in. Keep in mind that my high school is not one of the amazing NYC prep ones that sends a big portion of its class to Ivies
 Generally 4-6 students out of 400 get into an Ivy each year from my high school based on academic merits - i.e. not an athletic recruit). Perhaps according to Northstarmom’s logic, I would need to accomplish something incredible in order to get into an Ivy League school. Well, I was accepted at the 6th(?) best school in the country, and I honestly have not done anything of the caliber you mentioned. My biggest ECs were being captain/president of my school’s mathlete team/math club, writing as an editor for the school paper, volunteering as a football coach for a clinic, volunteering for my school’s general student group, and president of a language club. In terms of awards, I had one county/state math award, I had a poem that was put into a poetry compilation (it was probably the only poem I’ve ever written – speaks to the prestige of the poetry group), and I had two or three awards from my high school for contests (school’s art contest, biology fair). As you can see, my interests were very varied and I think I showed considerable leadership and dedication to some interests (math, writing, art). </p>

<p>As alluded to by Ferny Reyes, I was very tempted not even to apply to an Ivy League school because of people like Northstarmom who make you believe you need to have had an art piece hung in the Met, gone to a national math competition, or had a story published somewhere to even have a shot at getting in.</p>

<p>But I applied anyway, and got into Penn. (To show that my academics were good but not exceptional, I was top 3% of my class (average/below average for Penn/Ivies), SAT II average of 715, and 2300s on SAT (perhaps my strong point – to the people who say it isn’t worth it to prep hard to raise your SAT score, I STRONGLY disagree. I had a 2240 my first take, and raised it 90 points when I retook. If it hadn’t been for this, I strongly believe I wouldn’t have gotten into Penn. People need to remember that GPA and SATs account for about 2/3 of the admissions component for Ivies. I agree that it’s not worth it to kill yourself for 30 or 40 more points. But from mid-2200s to low/mid-2300s – that makes a difference. And FYI, the only study material I used to prep for the SAT was the CollegeBoard blue book, so none of this “wealthy Northeast kid buying his test score”
 It came with a LOT of dedication, practice, studying, and hard work).
And no, I was not a legacy.</p>

<p>Anyway, as I just mentioned, this whole thread may skew the importance of ECs a bit in college admissions. While they are DEFINITELY very important and necessary for top college admissions, they generally only come into play if you have very strong grades/test scores in the first place. Harvard isn’t gonna accept someone who volunteered for local charity causes and had their artwork hung in a gallery/museum if they rank 40th in a class of 150. (I actually know someone like this, who goes to a bad state school.)</p>

<p>I think I just wanted to let all the frenzied high schoolers know that normal kids get into Ivies all the time. My friends are very accomplished, and yet none have achieved more than 1 of the things that Northstarmom would have you believe are necessary for an Ivy. Granted, I don’t go to Hahhvad, but I do attend Penn, so hey. Also, many of my friends were accepted and/or waitlisted at HPYS (I have a friend (NON WHARTON, for all you zomgWhartonzomg people out there) who was accepted at every school she applied to, including Princeton and Stanford, but obviously chose Penn =P. It’s all about your personality and what fits for you.) without having these crazy credentials. One of them was MVP of her high school’s basketball team, was arguably among the state’s best players, and went to basketball camps every summer. She had other ECs of course, and is an especially good writer, and OMG she got into Penn (WL @ Yale) without curing cancer! Again, use me as an example: Nothing amazing, but still did well in the admissions game.</p>

<p>I just hope people will relax. I remember this website making me feel so inferior for a while. My advice would just be
 Always aim for A’s in school
 Study hard for standardized tests (SATs, APs, etc)
 And be involved in the stuff you wanna do! You’ll hate doing something that you don’t like if you’re only doing it to look good for Harvard. </p>

<p>Someone in the top 1-2% of their class, captain of a varsity sports team, 1st chair clarinet player in the school band, editor for the school newspaper, and 2200+ SAT score would look like a damn good applicant to me. I know A LOT more of this type of kid at Penn/other Ivies, who showed their talent and dedication in various areas, than the rare (if existent?) kind of students that Northstarmom and others have mentioned.</p>

<p>(And Sharjeel89: Definitely put that on your resume! Include a little description, basically what you wrote in your post. It’ll show admissions officers another side of you and something that you’re proud of
 That can do nothing but help you. If you can’t or don’t include a resume/CV with your app, ask your guidance counselor or a teacher to elaborate for you. Or there’s always the essay! Good luck.)</p>

602

<p>i have good ec’s
btu my first sat was 1950
i will take it agian
btu with this score is it like a no chance for ivy’s or places like berkeley??</p>

603

<p>hahaa add inventing a practical technique for a sub-saharan african village to recycle their water supply after spending the summer volunteering there. all before junior year. freakish, right?..it was in our newspaper a few years back when i was in 6th grade maybe
i think my dad pointed me to it, and proceeded to ask what was wrong with me
kidding
about that last part =]</p>

604

<p>a GOOD EC is something that you truly love and put a lot of effort into. Let’s take a hypothetical scenario: two people, Bob and Joe are both applying to a random university. They have the same test scores and they only things they differ in is their ECs. Bob worked as an assistant to the NIH’s director for one summer and received a good letter of recommendation from the director. Joe plays basketball on his school team and has played basketball ever since he was little. Even though Joe is not the best player on his team or the leader of the team, he puts his heart into the game and plays 110% every game. </p>

<p>In this case, Joe will get admitted because his EC was something that he truly wanted to do and put his best effort in. There is no way to cheat the application process and there are no loopholes or easy ways to get admitted. Just because Bob got a job with the NIH director for one summer doesn’t necessarily mean he put his heart into that job. The point of ECs is to reveal one’s characters, not to cheat one’s way into an university.</p>

605

<p>This seems to be a topic that concerns a lot of people. I agree with one voice that the EC’s mentioned by Northstarmom are overboard and do a disservice to prospective college students. My daughter went to Princeton. She had nothing like what was mentioned and was the top student upon graduating(GPA). The first thing to worry about is academics. If you are an academic A(see book by former college administrator Ms. Hernandez) then your chances are very good for an Ivy school. Logically the lower you are academically you’ll have to cover that deficit with something so the EC’s will be more important. One student on these boards mentioned a 630 score on his writing, I believe. Otherwise his scores were terrific but that he might want to bring up a bit.</p>

606

<p>rbroder-I think you misunderstand what Northstarmom was saying. Her point is that for admission to one of the top schools, there a number of combinations of gpa, test scores, ECs etc. that contribute. She never said that someone with great academics and “weak” ECs would NOT be admitted. She simply pointed out that one increases admission possiblities by having as much of the full package as is possible. </p>

<p>For example, my daughter has a math test score that’s not great, but she has really unique ECs. The hope would be that when the full package is evaluated, she’ll have a chance at admission to a top school. I think the point is that adcoms might take someone with lower standardized test scores because of their unusual and passionate ECs over the myriad of applicants with top-notch scores. But, clearly (as in your case) really great gpa and test scores can be enough to gain admission to top schools. It’s best to excel in as many areas as possible, of course, but not always essential.</p>

607

<p>Can anyone tell me where I stand roughly? I know I don’t have the strongest ECs but I’d like to know where I stand:
(rising junior)</p>

<p>-JV Tennis (9th, 10th)
-Capt of JV Tennis (10th)
-Varsity Tennis (next year, 11th)
-Latin Club (will apply for position next year)
-Key Club
-National Honors Society (11th)
-Volunteer at a Senior Resident Center for Alzheimer Patients since Sept. 08 (~150 hours so far)
-5 Weeks Internship at Harvard Medical School (Summer 09)
-Piano (8th-present), 95 on the Level 5 NYSSMA Solo(will do level 6 next year)(10th)
-Silver Medal “Maxima Cum Laude” on the National Latin Exam (level 2)</p>

608

<p>That’s a nice “list” of ECs. The volunteering especially seems great. However, to tell you where you stand you would have to describe what you have gotten from each EC; what does a Latin club position mean? What happens in Key Club? Maybe personalize the list a little more or else it’s just a list.</p>

609

<p>Just a comment, about admissions in general

If you look in the ‘What are my Chances’ threads, a lot, if not pretty much all of the people who post there seem to have AMAZING academics, AND ECs
 It gives you an idea of how competitive the admissions process is.
Personally, I think it comes down to how you present yourself, in the essay
? Because everyone is amazing academically and extra-curricularly and everything else
 a list of achievements is just a list, after all
</p>

610

<p>neongreen has it right. Even the best ECs lose some of their impact if you simply list them without any reference to what they meant to you as a person.</p>

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<p>I know but I plan on using the common app. and there isn’t much room to elaborate. Should I attach a resume then?</p>

612

<p>yes, you can attach a resume.</p>

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<p>@sora2712</p>

<p>Huh, I actually haven’t seen much impressive stuff. Mostly the ECs stop at school level recognition, with state or national recognition only in small competitions. I guess we just have different expectations.</p>

614

<p>I was wondering I have the following from Northstarmom’s list</p>

<p>Raised 60k through grants/donations by myself and led adults and kids in the construction of a dog park as my eagle scout project
Eagle scout
Varsity golf captain
I’m president of a club and in nhs and a bunch of other clubs. </p>

<p>Do you think these things will stand out on my application? I plan on my common app essay to be about the dog park</p>

615

<p>meSsIaH: maybe it was the internationals thread. either way, all the academics stuff i read was 2300’s, and every second person was a national sports-SOMEthing, or founded a national magazine etc.
lol, maybe you read different threads from me.</p>

616

<p>Honestly, Eagle Scout/Gold Award SHOULD NOT be considered good ECs. In my younger days of my youth, I was a cub-scout, no idea why but at the time it sounded fun. I quit for 6 years because we moved, and later I learned a few of my friends (in highschool) were boyscouts. Because at the time I was naive and easily manipulated, one of them encouraged me to join because it looked good on a college application. So, I joined for a bit, did a camping trip and earned some merits (was in for 4-5 months?), and I quit when I learned a few things.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The BSA does NOT allow agnostic/atheist members to join their organization, or become eagle scouts. This is completely counter productive to higher education ideals, you HAVE to be a member of a practicing-religous group. This was one of the reasons I quit. (not to ALL instutitions).</p></li>
<li><p>The BSA does NOT allow homosexuals to join, work for, or become eagle scouts. Honestly, AGAIN with the counter productivity (though, not at ALL institutions), people who go to Yale, Harvard, Princeton, any non-religious college know that society should be accepting. My ex-scout master was very conservative, so this was the 2nd big reason I quit.</p></li>
<li><p>IT’S NOT HARD AT ALL. Ok, maybe some scout masters are harder than others, but the one I had was terribly lax. I was 16 when I joined, and he wanted me to get my eagle, so I had two years to get it. He basically didn’t care if I completely understood something or if I completed something, and checked me off on alot of things. I doubt he’s the only scout leader like that. Furthermore, if you join early enough ALL IT IS IS A WAITING GAME. You’ll slowly get badges and the such, and it’s all very easy, it doesn’t take skill or work ethics or anything.</p></li>
<li><p>I don’t see how basic wilderness skills can help you get into a college. None of the badges are academic-related (or, at least none of the eagle-required ones), or help broaden your mind.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>it’s a commitment yes, but it’s a stupid one. You don’t need to be able to do anything, and it’s very easy work. Add in lax scout leaders, and it’s one of the easiest “ECs” you can do.</p>

617

<p>@ with<em>one</em>voice: u’re a life saver
 i almost gave up applyin for yale when i read other ppl did not have enuff EC"s
 i rank 1st in my class (97 ppl) n got all straight A’s in my a level examinations
 but my SAT scores are 2070
 n i dun think retakin wud help
 i got a 660 in CR which m satisfied with n 710 on the Math section
 my EC’s arent so great
was a part of constructing houses for habitat fo humanity
 have volunteered to teach at a bunch of schools
 m workin realy hard at my currnt job
 i think i want the admissions officr to focus on my academics
 do u think i shud retake the SAts??</p>

618

<p>EC is not important</p>

619

<p>I honestly find it very hard to believe Northstarmom’s list of EC’s are the norm among Ivy Leaguers. My school gets kids into Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, and many other Ivy Leagues every year. We are a private school in North NJ, right outside of NYC (very competitive area). I would say that hardly any of those in my school had any of the EC’s Northstarmom listed. The closest would probably be that one was president of Habitat for Humanity club at my school. However, others definitely did not have these “so-called” outstanding EC’s. My brother got into Princeton, and he did not organize any community service projects or anything of this caliber. He was a great student with great SATs and was a leader in several school clubs. However, he showed PASSION for his extra curriculars in his essay. That’s what is most important. You may have some great EC’s, but if you don’t show passion for what you did, then you won’t get in. Its not about doing everything, its about doing things that you love and enjoy and are passionate for. </p>

<p>I just hope that kids don’t get bummed out and not apply for great schools because of the ridiculous expectations this website has.</p>

620

<p>how would having little or no ECs affect college admission?</p>