Thoughts on prestige, debt, success, happiness

College Search & Selection
1

Hello, everyone! I’m applying to college this fall and I’ve been thinking a lot about where I want to be in life in ten years.

I’m thinking of doing something along the lines of medicine–a nurse or doctor. (I see these as two important and very different careers). Or maybe something in neuroscience or psychology. With any career I think I will probably do some sort of graduate/professional schooling.

So, I was thinking of applying to some prestigious universities and see what happens. Yet, I have other private schools on my list that would guarantee me a full ride merit scholarship that are still in the top 100 colleges. Doesn’t it make more sense to get a good education, paying only for housing/food/books than go to a big name top 20 university, paying $50k (+all other expenses) a year? Especially if I follow that up with more schooling afterwards?

However, I asked a pretty successful lawyer if he regretted attending a lesser known school for undergrad because he did get into a couple of Ivy Leagues back in his day. He actually said he did regret it. He wished he’d gotten the more prestigious education. He told me I only get to do undergrad once and I might as well go to the best school I can.

But, then I see other highly intelligent people (a few of my role models) with amazing stats and accomplishments not even apply to a top tier university because they just want a good education for a reasonable price and will work extremely hard regardless.

I’m thinking maybe it just depends. Everyone is so different and one person might be happy being in a less competitive and inexpensive university. They might get to be top of their class and receive extra attention. Yet, others might excel in the pressure of competition (motivates them) and really appreciate the prestige of a top tier university, so the debt might be worth it for them. I’ve seen this kind of person turn down Harvard and mope about it for years to come. I think happiness is the most important factor and as long as a person works diligently he or she can repay any debt.

Of course, I might not even get into anywhere significant (probably won’t), but I think it’s important to reflect on this when applying to and choosing colleges.

If anyone wants to add their thoughts or experiences, please do!

2

It is easy for the rich lawyer to look back and say he should have gone to the expensive school. The money doesn’t look like a big deal to him now. But maybe he couldn’t have afforded law school at the time if he had gone to a more expensive undergrad, too.

3

“I’ve seen this kind of person turn down Harvard and mope about it for years to come.”

In contrast, when then candidate, now Massachusetts governor, Charlie Baker was asked by the Boston Globe to take the Proust Questionnaire, he responded as follows:

Q: What is your greatest regret?

A: Not going to Hamilton College. I never really felt comfortable at Harvard.

Though this analogy would not apply directly to the scenarios you have described – both of the above-referenced colleges are not inexpensive – the general principle implied may still pertain to the uncertainties you have expressed.

4

Pre-meds are usually advised to attend the cheapest university they can.

Most schools will be fine, as long as they’d prepare you for the MCAT. Earn high grades, and participate in medical extracurriculars/volunteering. Many pre-meds are “weeded out” at top schools, since a 3.5+ is necessary for medical school.

Graduate school is more important for pre-meds. You can’t go wrong with a US medical school, they’re all great!

5

My parents had various complaints about the uber prestige colleges they attended and advised me to go for fit over simply prestige. Fit can mean several things, but I wanted my kids to go where they would be empowered as individuals, be challenged and learn what it takes to succeed-- not resting on the shiny name on the diploma. Turns out each did go to a “top.” But not tippy top and it was the right environment for each of them, chosen based on that. Not “name” or someone else’s narrow definitions. You need to do more vetting on the right schools for you.

It’s not as simple as ‘easy to master’ versus the incentive of competition. Choose carefully and you can find the right balance, for you.

One really shouldn’t “regret” a decision well made, based on the info available, at the time. Your successful lawyer pal may have reached what he did because he went to the college that did empower him, move him forward, teach him to work toward his own best, (even if he complains about superficials, now, decades later.)

6

i cant really provide an answer since im trying to address these thoughts as well…but i can offer some perspective from how people in my life have treated it:

my parents are immigrants. they scoff if i say things about harvard because they think a CSU school would be just as good. to them, local and cheap is everything and their assumption is that top tier schools are simply more expensive but that they hold no extra value at all versus the closest state school. they think that wanting to go to a prestigious school stems from materialistic or snobbish tendencies. it’s frustrating because they assume a CSU is cheaper and thus better, even though in all honesty if someone with my EFC were to get into a top school (most of which meet the full need of people like me) it would probably be tuition free. so they dont really care about rankings at all and would probably think that only rich white people go to prestigious schools but consider it a ripoff compared to just average state schools. parents’ friends or most people ive seen working don’t really even know about top tier schools tbh. they might know what harvard is, but to them a local school has more recognition or prestige than dartmouth or yale so to them it wouldnt matter as well.

on the other hand

my professor who went to a top 10 university believes prestige is very important. public schools are more bureaucratic and dont get the funding they need. i definitely get the sense that he values prestige over many of the other metrics. like he would probably suggest going to a school that will look best on your resume and help you land a job even if you might be slightly less happy for 2 years. just suck it up and do it for the diploma which will give you a better ROI down the line. more opportunities from highly ranked schools because they invest more in students versus lower ranked schools that might not have the endowment to truly invest and provide a great education.
i also think that the general assumption he would make is that if you got to a school with more prestige, you’re more likely to land a higher paid job to help you cover any debt. whereas a less-known school most likely won’t open as many doors as a top ranked school would and you might still be left with debt.
and in complete opposition to my parents, im sure that he would think more highly of people who went to prestigious schools like himself because they “understand” how good of an education they got compared to what public schools or low quality schools offer. im sure he changes his mind once he gets to know people but it does feel a bit like a circle jerk at times. i see where he’s coming from though. it’s sort of like a mechanism to weed people out. if you were able to get into a top school, you had a great work ethic and are probably pretty smart and have some good leadership skills or something. yes, those are stereotypes and of course there are some very ignorant people at these top schools just as there are some really great intelligent hard working people at low ranked schools but it’s just a quick weeding out mechanism that most employers would probably do on resumes as well. but that’s what the rest of your resume is there for.

the way i think about it… if you’re from an average school, you have to work thrice as hard to stand out against people who went to top tier schools when it comes to resumes and finding work.

though people who get into top tier schools already had to work thrice as hard as the student who only got into the average school simply to get through the door of a top tier.

so perhaps it all evens out and prestige is just another unreliable metric.

7

I really love everyone’s input! There really is so many perspectives on the topic.

I have another point: My dad used to do hiring and recruitment for Northrop Grumman. He said he often recruited from top tier schools (specifically MIT). However, his stragety was not to target the 3.5+ GPA students. He would actually recruit the 3.0-3.5 students because at any prestigious institution that is a phenomenal grade point average. Plus, he knew they had to be bright to get into MIT in the first place.

Of course, this is only one example that I’m sure can be countered, but in this scenario there is something to be said about prestige.

However, I agree with @newjerseygirl98 about premed. GPA is definitely vital for med school admission.

8

First, I want to address the conflation of “low quality school” and “public school”. Public vs. private has nothing to do with prestige. There are many actually prestigious public universities (UCLA, UC-Berkeley, University of Virginia, College of William and Mary, UNC, Michigan, etc.) and other public universities I wouldn’t say are ‘prestigious’ per se but still have excellent reputations as great places to attend (University of Washington, UT-Austin, most of the other UCs, Cal Poly SLO, Arizona State, Penn State, NCSU, University of Georgia, University of Florida, UConn, Ohio State, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue, UIUC, many more others than I care to list). Most states have at least one or two state flagships that are really solid places to attend and have good graduation outcomes and excellent ROI for resident students - and sometimes even for nonresidents.

Second - I can share my purely anecdotal experience, as an N of 1. I turned down full pay and smaller scholarships at prestigious schools to attend my excellent (top 100) but non-prestigious LAC alma mater. I majored in psychology, enjoyed myself thoroughly, got a PhD in social psychology at Columbia and currently work for a large household name technology company as a researcher. It’s the kind of place people aspire to work at post-college. Do I ever regret attending a lesser known school for undergrad? Nope. Honestly, most days I don’t ever even think about it. The only reason I think about it is if I am answering questions like this for college hopefuls who are trying to choose a college. I definitely do not regret not taking out more debt to go to a more prestigious college. I have found lots of success without a prestigious undergrad degree.

My coworkers come from all kinds of undergrad schools, particularly if they have graduate degrees. Yeah, prestigious undergrads are overrepresented here, especially for people who just have a bachelor’s degree. But honestly, I also see more local grads than anything - there are probably more UW and WSU grads here than there are Harvard or Penn grads. (There are a lot of Michigan grads, but that’s because there are a lot of Michigan grads everywhere.)

Prestige =/= quality, necessarily. There are plenty of really great but not equally recognizable colleges that offer excellent educations and great post-graduation outcomes. You may have to explain your college multiple times to people after graduation, but who cares about that? I have discovered that I do not, especially as I approach my 10-year college reunion in a couple years.

Sure, you only get to do undergrad once, but I fail to see why that means you should go to a more prestigious school. It’s not like your experience in college will necessarily be better if you go to a more prestigious one.

9

@juillet Loved your post! Thank you. You are such an inspiration.

I would actually consider a lot of the public schools you stated as pretty prestigious. (And pretty expensive). People have been trying to convince me to apply to UCLA (I live in CA and UCLA is a huge deal in my area), but I was looking at even lower ranked schools where the tuition is very cheap (but still in top 100). I think graduate school is a lot more important than undergrad when it comes down to it. But, I just need to decide which undergrad will allow me to excel and have the proper resources, so I can be a competitive applicant for grad or professional school.

10

There are only a handful of professions and employers where the name of the undergraduate school is critical. Medicine definitely isn’t one of them.

For med school admission, what matters is GPA, MCAT score and conserving cash to pay for med school tuition.

11

Thanks, OP! If you live in CA, I would still encourage you to apply to UCLA - it doesn’t hurt to apply and see what your financial aid package looks like. But I do applaud you for staying realistic and applying to a range of schools. There are plenty of really great Cal States in CA that may give you more bang for your buck. (A couple of my classmates at Columbia went to Cal State campuses - had some friends who were graduates of SFSU, SDSU, CSU-Northridge and Humboldt State. And there are a lot of Cal Poly SLO sweatshirts walking around the campus of my job. Saw a CSUN one the other day, too.)

12

Caution is advised regarding any general public perceptions. Top students often choose colleges that are unfamiliar to those who know schools primarily through their prominent graduate programs, D1 sports, or other factors related to size.

Though reductive in title (but generally accurate in methodology), a Business Insider article, “The 50 Smartest Colleges,” briefly reviews an array of schools that top students frequently attend.

Beyond that, be aware of statistical overlap.The 75th percentile SAT score at Reed, for example, is 60 points higher than the 25th percentile score at Harvard. The “typical” student at either of these schools is fairly likely to possess comparable academic ability (In this example, the Reed students should be awarded extra points for discernment, in that they sought out a school that is relatively unknown.)

Lastly, schools less selective than those referenced in this post will often have great appeal to top students who have a clear sense of their own values and interests.

13

Colleges are sort of like cars…some people don’t care what their car looks like or how fast it goes or how pres y igious its brand is, as long as it gets them where they want to go. To other people , their car is a reflection of themselves … they want it to be clean & fast & impressive.

Where i live (midwest) many people obsess over their vehicle, but attend whichever college is closest or cheapest; to a majority of people i know, going to a “good” college is ok, but it’s not a major source of prestige. I talked to a bright girl yesterday who was thrilled to pieces to be starting at Wayne State U. this fall. WSU is a large public school in Detroit with a 25 percent graduation rate. Her joy wasnt the slightest reduced by the fact that her college barely registers on the prestige scale.

When i lived near Boston when i was in high school, in general, it was the opposite. Most people i knew were happy to drive any car that moved, but when it came time to go to college they were eager to go to private colleges with as much prestige as possible, even though they could have attended UMass , where tuition was one-tenth as much.

14

Prestige is something you earn, not something you buy.

Therefore, those who go into debt attempting to buy prestige are unlikely to be successful or happy.

15

@Mastadon I agree prestige is something you earn. But just because you have to go into debt to pay for your education, does not mean you didn’t earn the right to be there. I think going into debt can either motivate someone to work harder or make him or her anxious (and possibly crash under the pressure). If you are in the latter group, then you probably won’t be happy. However, the people in the former group, will be successful because they are willing to work hard. And if they love what they do and find purpose in it, they will probably be happy, too.

So, I never judge someone for their choice in school. I think everyone needs to find the best fit for them. And sometimes that’s the most practical school and other times it’s the more prestigious school. Regardless, both kinds of people can be successful and happy.

16

IMHO, those are the worst schools to be a pre-med at. No grade inflation, weed out classes and even the high-stat students are average. You are better off going to one of the few a grade-inflating Ivies, or to a lower ranked but less competitive school in which the pre-med will be in the top 10 percent of the pool of students.

17

There is nothing wrong with securing a reasonable amount of debt to fund an education.

I would advise caution in securing debt just to go to a “more prestigious” school.

Here is the definition of the word “prestigious” (from Webster’s Dictionary)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prestigious

Here is an explanation of the evolution of the word “prestige” (from Oxford’s Dictionary)

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/prestige

18

There’s prudent debt and imprudent debt. Student loan principal should not be the size of a home mortgage.

If you need to borrow money to feel motivation to work hard, then the money may be better spent on therapy.

19

@PrimeMeridian I think a lot people graduate with debt unless their parents paid for them or they got a very generous merit or need-based scholarship. I never said anyone “needs” to go into debt to be motivated to work hard. That makes no sense. There’s tons of reasons to be motivated. I’m just saying it CAN motivate you. That’s a distinct difference. Like how debt can motivate you to spend less money on inessentials. Or how it can motivate you to work overtime, etc.

My grandpa was in debt for a little while before he was married, but he got out of it and never was in debt the rest of his life. He never took out loans or anything, he always paid upfront. I don’t think that’s the case for most people, Debts are part of life and yes we should limit them as much as possible, but I’m not going to judge someone who takes out a loan to pay for the education they want and earned. Even though, I plan to attend a university where I can get a full-ride merit scholarship. That’s my personal decision, but there’s plenty of successful people who go to more prestigious institutions and take out loans.

20

The perceived quality/price trade-off often is most compelling for “donut hole” families, those earning maybe $150K to $250K, who would be paying a big net price premium to attend an “elite” private school (but who aren’t wealthy enough not to miss that money). In my opinion, for a prospective pre-med student from a donut-hole family, the state flagship usually makes more sense than paying a big price premium for an elite private school. Better to save that money for med school. However, if money isn’t a big factor (either because your family is wealthy or you’re offered boatloads of aid), I’d say choose the best personal fit. If Ivy League prestige (or something else about these schools) appeals to you, go for it.

I’ve never quite bought the argument that you should choose an “easier” school where you’re likely to stand out with a higher GPA. The pace might be a little faster at an Ivy (or peer “elite”) but organic chemistry will be hard anywhere. There won’t necessarily be more aggressive “weed out” at a more prestigious school; you might even get better support there if you’re struggling. The most selective colleges do not have low med school admission rates. On the contrary, they tend to be among the highest. I haven’t seen a convincing data-driven argument that, after adjusting for weed-out or admission selectivity, their rates would be lower than “easier” schools. I think it’s just too hard to tease out all the factors involved to conclude one way or another that your college choice affects your med school admission chances very much. So I’d judge more by net cost and personal fit.