<p>
</p>
<p>This is true at only a handful of firms. Most Biglaw partners make significantly less than this, though they still make a very nice living.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why not? From a financial perspective, med school is very obviously the better choice, unless you for some reason fixate on the fact that residencies pay less than biglaw, ignoring the fact that few law students get biglaw or that biglaw associates don’t have the guarantee of high salaries and reduced hours in the future.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Lawyers don’t “set their own hours”. Lawyers have to be responsive to their clients’ needs, which generally means irregular hours and a need to be almost-constantly available.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>As I said:
</p>
<hr>
<p>
</p>
<p>And doctors have to see enough patients to pay the bills and respond to medical emergencies, which means (with some specialty exceptions) irregular hours and rotational “on-call” nights. And if either a doctor or a lawyer decides to take a month off and return afterwards, their business will suffer, but neither will be fired. If a lawyer decides to attend his son’s soccer game at 3 PM, his business sill suffer but he will not be fired (unless this is part of a pattern). If a doctor decides to close up clinic at 3 PM, his business will suffer but he will not be fired (unless he is on-call).</p>
<p>Control over schedule is roughly similar, and perhaps even somewhat less for physicians than for partners at any sort of law firm.</p>
<hr>
<p>Most physicians, especially in surgical specialties or cardiology, work somewhat harder and have less control than lawyers do. They make more money than most lawyers, but about the same as associates at big law firm and as in-house attorneys for major corporations, and much less than partners at big law firms.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the risk in being a physician is much lower. Once you are into medical school, you are very nearly guaranteed the chance to be a doctor of some kind, and getting into a top specialty is hard but usually possible.</p>
<p>So the tradeoffs, when evaluating purely from a lifestyle perspective, are essentially this:
–Getting into medical school in the first place is more difficult than getting into law school.
–On the other hand, becoming a physician from medical school is much more likely than becoming a biglaw attorney from law school.
–As young trainees, “biglaw” lawyers are paid much more than young physicians. This lasts for a significant period of time. Compared to biglaw lawyers, physicians almost always end up making less lifetime income (especially when time-weighted).
–As young trainees, both professions are miserable, but young physicians generally have it worse.
–In the long run, doctors more dependably have high incomes than lawyers generally do.
–Compared to a biglaw associate who does not make partner, a specialist physician generally have about the same income as a permanent “senior counsel” type position or an in-house position at a corporation. So they usually won’t recover the “residency gap.”
–Compared to a biglaw partner, of course, the physician is never going to catch up.
–Purely from a financial perspective, then, comparing medical school #50 to law school #50, the medical school probably wins. Comparing law school #5 to medical school #5, the law school probably wins.</p>
<p>Of course, that overlooks another point, which is that:
–Most people will find that one profession or the other is much more fun. If you happen to be risk-averse AND prefer medicine, then by all means pick that route. If you are not particularly risk averse, AND prefer law, AND can score well on the LSAT, then by all means attend the best law school you can get into.</p>
<hr>
<p>Baller’s #18 was attempting to argue that doctors make more money, more dependably, while living nicer lives than even biglaw attorneys. Which simply isn’t true.</p>
<p>How difficult is it to get Partner at biglaw? For example, Dewey, or White & Case firms, what does it take to reach Partner at these firms? As he said, the chances are very slim, but what determines the spot? </p>
<p>Also, I wanted to know if the general consensus regarding job satisfaction and “happiness” with the job is higher in one field or another. Someone stated that with medicine there is more light at the end of the tunnel, in what sense? I aver that in medicine, you are helping others and there is a vital humanitarian cause exhibited by your role, whereas in law, you are subject to the whim and caprice of a soulless android industry that is focused on dominating others, yourself included, so that more money can dome down the road. And that is Corporate America. A bit too masochistic for my liking. Now I’m not saying that it’s like that at every law firm, but the annoying client and corporate pressure/mechanical approach to life is so much more saturated in law than in medicine.</p>
<p>Plus you stated that most doctors make more money than “most” lawyers, meaning that most lawyers do not make partner and therefore as associates, doctors blow them out of the water when it comes to pay. I guess most people then would equate the physician as making more money than the attorney for an overall “picture”, and we are all going to fall in that picture when it comes to this issue, so, for the most part, and with a tremendous amount of luck and determination when it comes to making partner at biglaw, doctors have a leg-up in the grand scheme of things with pay. </p>
<p>But such a comparison I agree is trivial; comparing the two professions is like apples and oranges. My core interest is what makes the individual * happier * at the end of the day? I do not like arguing, “duking it out”, and trying to weed people out to the max, or succumbing to constant sadism, which seems to be the case with law. I’m sure you’ve heard of many miserable attorneys who hate their jobs. That’s not the case here. What I want to know is which field is less flooded with a “sinister undertone” (if that makes sense), because I like humanitarian causes. The only issue with law that comes to mind in this regard is an international law firm as they strive for humanitarian causes/freedom, in comparison to corporate, tax, litigation, or divorce attorneys, who basically want to screw the other party over. Even then, though, international law firms don’t make much money in comparison to their corporate firms, so you can guess where such effort goes for monetary reward.</p>
<p>I guess “happy” is too much of an umbrella term when it comes to these fields, but I’m sure most doctors are in fact more delighted at the end of the day for their work, rather than snake-like attorneys who have to battle it out on a daily basis with co-workers and clients * just*so they can “keep their job.”</p>
<p>Sorry if that is totally wrong, but I’m guessing here simply. Is that how biglaw really is? Weeding you out so someone else can come in? Constant arguing and corporate pressure?</p>
<p>Lastly, if you do not attend a T14 law school, is it going to be exceedingly difficult to join biglaw?</p>
<p>“How difficult is it to make partner?” </p>
<p>VERY DIFFICULT, as in, no one, not even a Harvard graduate, should expect to make partner.</p>
<p>“Plus you stated that most doctors make more money than “most” lawyers, meaning that most lawyers do not make partner and therefore as associates, doctors blow them out of the water when it comes to pay”
This is a wrong assumption. What is being said is that the vast majority of lawyers don’t make biglaw at all. Biglaw is the coveted job, but probably 85% of JD earners don’t work in biglaw. Also, a full fledged doctor salary is equivalent to an associate salary but there is more job security as a doctor and most associates (those not making partner) get pushed out of biglaw firms after 6 years or so and many of them end up having to take lower paying jobs. But also, because of residency and the length of school you can be making Bigalw salary at 26 but won’t be making doctors salary till 31-32. Still doctor is far safer and on average is going to be far more lucrative. </p>
<p>“field less flooded with a sinister undertone” (if that makes sense), because I like humanitarian causes"</p>
<p>I don’t really know what you mean, but it definitely sounds like being a lawyer (or banking or business) is really what you are looking for. Doctor is probably the way to go. </p>
<p>“if you do not attend a T14 law school, is it going to be exceedingly difficult to join biglaw?”
Yes (and Georgetown is sucking it up too)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No. Most doctors make more money than most lawyers because most lawyers are not in big law. Doctors make approximately what biglaw associates make.</p>
<p>I see. So can biglaw associates move easily up the ladder, or, as Patriot stated, the odds will be working against them in a few years, being pushed out, and thus forced to take lower pay? I guess the security and financial hope is higher and more stable with medicine than the ephemeral biglaw associate jobs for most who are hoping to “grow”?</p>
<p>BTW, there are a lot of threads about this already. </p>
<p>But Biglaw firms generally have 8 year partner tracks. You make partner or you get out. For the years you are there though you will almost always get a raise every year. For a NYC type firm you could be making 250k in your 6th or 8th year before you leave or make partner. Exit opportunities are different for everybody and different at that better firm you are at. Some people go to smaller firms, in house counsel for a company, government jobs, or maybe a partner track at a different firm (rare). Some of these jobs will pay less than what they were making as associates but still usually top 2% of income earners, some will pay more, and some (like an AUSA) have the opportunity of you coming back into biglaw as a partner. Some people get out of law and do consulting, business, entreprenurial endeavors, political endeavors, etc. Some make staff attorney positions at these biglaw firms but it is my understanding (correct me if i’m wrong) that people try to avoid these if they have other options because there isn’t really an opportunity to move up and the work is generally as grueling and “grunt” like as an associate.</p>
<p>^Hmm…see that’s the thing. I want a lot of predictability in a field. That all sounds good but it seems like, judging by the post, law is prone to many things, and you are not guaranteed squat. I seriously want to fortify my career and have it set-in-stone, not to say that a job will do that as all are subject to unexpected maneuvers, but in medicine is it more likely that you will be more respected, secure, and financially stable than the unexpected ways of law firms and the like? </p>
<p>Also, I really want to know which field allows you more leeway in working on your own, and creating your own schedule?</p>
<p>Schedule-wise, the best field would be entrepreneurship – starting your own business. Stability-wise, medicine is probably the best field. It’s possible that government policy will change this moving forward, but so far it hasn’t really done so.</p>
<p>The two are basically opposites.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>How is it not? Most of you’ve said supports that assertion. According to this, doctors only work about 51 hours a week on average: [Dartmouth</a> News - Study shows physicians are working fewer hours, says Dartmouth professor](<a href=“http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2010/02/23.html]Dartmouth”>http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2010/02/23.html) Ten years out, a doctor is almost certain to have much better hours than a senior associate/partner in biglaw. And if lawyer leaves biglaw (which, again, virtually all do), they likely won’t make anywhere near what the doctor does.</p>
<p>1.) Lifetime wealth is highly sensitive to early earnings, where doctors are at a huge disadvantage.
2.) Many or even most biglaw exit options pay comparably to specialist physicians.
3.) Biglaw attorneys who do make partner – a minority, to be sure, but it isn’t sensible to completely ignore them either – earn much more money than physicians do.
4.) There’s wide variability in how much physicians work, and #18 focuses intensely on specialists. While some of the high-paying specialties (dermatology, radiology) don’t work all that hard, those are also the really selective ones. If you wanted to focus on the other high-paying fields, those physicians are still working very hard even late into their careers.</p>
<p>From everything you’ve posted, it seems that going to law school would not be the right decision for you. Also, you aren’t really going to set your own schedule in any profession unless you work for yourself. As a doctor, that’s only going to happen if you start your own practice, same for being a Lawyer. Entrepreneurship is really the only way to keep your own schedule. Prestigious and lucrative finance and business careers are also going to be erratic and long hours. Basically, if you want to make a lot of money, 99% of the time you have to work long and erratic hours. You could work a solid 8-5 job, but usually these pay less, you can make upper middle class but you usually aren’t getting rich. The most stability you can get, work for the federal government. Get a degree in economics or similar and work as an analyst for a federal agency. You can be solidly middle class, have good benefits, and almost zero chance of getting laid off.</p>
<p>“3.) Biglaw attorneys who do make partner – a minority, to be sure, but it isn’t sensible to completely ignore them either – earn much more money than physicians do.”</p>
<p>I looked up some biglaw partner attorneys on their websites (White & Case and others), who earned JD’s from non t-14’s. I saw University of Notre Dame, Iowa, Washington, Illinois, and hell even Howard! Howard University? Clearly, then, there is another way to attain partner at biglaw rather than attending a t-14, no? </p>
<p>And, did those partners at biglaw who have their JD’s from Howard earn $1 Million a year, since that is what the medium is for any biglaw partner, I aver? Also, one biglaw website said it plans to do recruiting at UCI Law, which is not even officially accredited yet. Does this refute the t-14 only notion?</p>
<p>A few more clarifying points here, please. What determines partner? How are the stakes? I believe that the MD though still gives more security and more growth, whereas at law firms, the growth is volatile like Patriot said. Still, though, I just wanted to know, are you suggesting that <em>every single partner at every single megafirm</em> makes astronomically more than specialized Physicians?</p>
<p>To wit: these posts are out of curiosity’s sake. Do not assume I am trying to counteract the objective data or go against what others say. Typically, that’s the way the internet presents itself in the forum boards: everyone avers that they are trying to argue against you. I guess it’s the nature of the internet. On the contrary. I am curious and want straight forward answers, so correct me if I’m wrong in some areas here. Thank you.</p>
<p>Patriot: I still do love the law, and am seriously considering it. Poli Sci as an undergrad, so you can imagine. But I am very multi-faceted. One side of me has a thing for nobility and humanitarian causes and help, which is medicine. Less polarization than law, and excellent monetary incentives, that’s for sure. Unless some kind of useless “MD/JD” program is out there where you can get the best of both worlds (actually, that would defeat the purpose, but I just provided that as an illustrative) I will continue doing my research to discover my core passion.</p>
<p>Baller, we are in a much different time now in the legal profession then ever before. Ten, Twenty, Thirty years ago there was still a shortage of lawyers. This meant that you could go to a school down the rankings and get Biglaw. Look at Cornell for an example. Only about 45-50% of Cornell’s class has a chance at Biglaw in this economy but not that long ago 80-90% would get Biglaw. Same as you moved down the line. Because of this you will see Notre Dame grads and those in similar situations as partners or in prestigious positions, and don’t get me wrong Notre Dame grads still can accomplish this, but it is astronomically harder for a Notre Dame grad to do this now then it was 20 years ago. Notre Dame had less then 60 firms recruiting there this year, and a lot of them were not biglaw firms. This means at most top 1/3 got biglaw from Notre Dame, maybe only top 1/4. So as you can see, it’s possible, just not something you can bank on going in. Also, in regards to Howard, a lot of firms recruit there because they do specific minority hiring. </p>
<p>In regards to Partner, a lot of of firms now do Equity partners and Non-Equity partners. Non-Equity partners are still on salary and probably making the equivalent to a specialized surgeon (400-500k, someone correct me if i’m wrong). Equity partners share in the profits of the firm, and the better the firm the more money you are going to make, but i’d be shocked if most partners of the vault 100 weren’t at least making 800k, and usually more. Equity partner is a step up from non-equity.</p>
<p>^Accord with Patriot’s comments.</p>
<p>Basically, it’s the same tradeoff as always: medicine is more secure (pending any future health reform); law has the potential to be more lucrative. And most people find that one or the other is much more fun for them.</p>
<p>Once you are in biglaw, you have probably beaten physicians, dollar-wise. Even those who are forced to find exit options usually find exit options which will keep them ahead of physicians. in lifetime wealth. Of course, most lawyers don’t make biglaw.</p>
<p>So if you attend Howard, are you saying that biglaw firms will actively be recruiting there, every year? And since it is historically black, if you are not black, then you don’t stand a chance at being recruited because, as you said, they are looking for the minority? I saw Howard at almost every biglaw website for their scheduled recruitment on campus. But again, must you be black, and if you are not, then you don’t stand a chance to get in biglaw? Just to clarify. </p>
<p>Latham recruits USD, Loyola Marymount, Houston, and wow, even UCI, which just started and is not even officially accredited yet. So my question was since these schools are definitely not t-14, do students here who perform well have an equal chance at being hired for biglaw? But seriously, why not just attend Howard since that is on the hit-list of almost every biglaw firm (that is of course if you can’t make t-14)? Please answer accordingly. </p>
<p>I think that money-wise, the chance of getting rich is much easier and more practical as a specialized Physician then, since it is <em>not</em> cutthroat as it seems to be in law when reaching for partner, whereas depending on firm conditions and what not, there is no sure-fire way to get partner as it is when becoming a Physician. Fair statement? Patriot you even said that is the case: </p>
<p>“Med School is definitely a better bet. Average salary is higher, and most med schools will get you in that top 2% of income earners. You don’t have to go to Harvard to guarantee that.”</p>
<p>And mike, how secure/stable is the position of partner at biglaw? Comparable to a Physician in terms of security? I would assume partner has the tendency to get demoted or laid-off at any given juncture due to market conditions or other nuances.</p>
<p>Ok, you are often asking the same questions multiple times. I basically answered your question about the firms at these lower ranked schools. I can’t talk specifically to a white person at Howard but it is widely known the reason firms go there is to recruit diversity candidates. As far as USD, Loyola, etc. these types of schools will usually have some people make biglaw. But they will have a very small amount. And the farther down the rankings you go you may not find anyone getting biglaw. Put it this way, i’m intimately familiar with Ohio State. Ohio State is ranked like 33rd. You can get biglaw from Ohio State, but you have to be, in this economy, in the top 1/5 of the class. Loyola is probabaly even tougher. There are some schools which will have only 5 or so people getting biglaw. Some will have none. The T-14 or bust mentality is basically saying that you don’t stand a good chance of biglaw unless it’s a t14 school. Even Georgetown right now is really only about the top 35-40% are getting biglaw. So going to Loyola and expecting to get biglaw is just silly. Could it happen? Sure. But should you willing to bet 3 years of lost income and 160,000 dollars in total living expenses over those three years on it? No. And when you get down the rankings the prospects of finding any legal jobs gets much tougher. People from schools like Seton Hall or Brooklyn are often not getting any legal jobs at all. You CAN do it, but it is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that you will. I’m not sure how much more clear it can get on this subject. Btw, even Howard is only putting 10-15% in biglaw, even with the supposed relative ease of getting biglaw as an African American. </p>
<p>As far as making partner, no one can spefically tell you that unless they have been through it. But it’s going to be the same as any other job and promotion, you have to do an extremely good job, make people like you, and work extra hard. The VAST majority of good lawyers at these firms will not make partner. Being good at your job is not enough. There isn’t really much more to say on the subject.</p>
<p>^Got it, thanks for clarifying. Looks like, then, the stakes are all for the better with regard to money, security, less competition, less strife, less polarization, and more opportunity/security in medicine than in law. Vast majority of lawyers don’t make partner/biglaw, so in a nutshell, Physicians outweigh both issues with their respective earnings and job securities. And I would definitely assume that over the years, law will make you more depressed than medicine, due to the animus exhibited by the profession itself. Your morals or ethics might be at stake. What a Faustian Deal.</p>
<p>basically, it seems like going to a law school is a huge gamble from a prospective law student’s perspective. do u know roughly how high up in the class rank you have to be to have a legit shot for biglaw coming from low-tier T14? top 30%? top 50%? is there any data that shows these kinda statistics?</p>
<p>how about schools like ucla, vanderbilt, or usc?</p>