TIME Article: What's Wrong with Our High Schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>yes, but the school alone cannot provide the "expectation". If parents don't have the expectations (and many do NOT) that their kids can learn (or need to learn) higher level math, then there is not much a school can do.</p>

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<p>It's not just math. Here in California there is a major problem because ESL students must take and pass the exit exam. Many are bright kids and pass the math portion of the exam, but flounder on the English section. These are often kids who have been in this country only short timeand have acquired verbal fluency in English and basic writing skills, but they can't get past the grammar & usage questions presented on the exam. Getting grammar/usage right in a second language is tough even at the college level-- and of course exams tend to present questions that are tricky or geared to common usage errors.

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Of the students who still struggle to pass, the report notes a disproportionate number are minorities and English learners. An estimated 20 percent of African-American students, 31 percent of English learners, and 18 percent of economically disadvantaged students have yet to pass both portions of the exam.

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Source: <a href="http://www.themilpitaspost.com/schools/ci_3681042%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.themilpitaspost.com/schools/ci_3681042&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Interesting conversation some points : 1) quaility of instruction.... hiring good math teachers is the most difficult thing for school administrators. Most teachers go into math because they were good at it in school. The reason they were good at it was because they have above average nonverbal skills which are required for success in math (visual-perceptual skills), however these same skills are not predictive of success in teaching where above average verbal skills are needed. English, Social Studies, all teachers who teach language-based subjects are more likely to be good teachers because the nature of their subject fits in with why they are interested in it in the first place (language). 2) Requireemnt of ALG II to graduate. We started with that in NY state a number of years ago but the state has softened and we are now offering electives such as "world of technology" for our third mat. 3) dropout rate....kids who are dropping out in our school are those who can't make themselves get to class, who are attempting to wander the halls all day. the vast majority have the intellectual ability to [pass classes but lack the discipline. This comes from home. The same schools thay are turning out outstanding young people who are doing great things such as eagle scouts, scholarship athletes, community leaders, acceptences at top colleges, are also geting drop outs. It's the same school, but different homes that they are coming from.</p>

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<p>Boy, the talk about co-teaching really hits home here. I "co-taught" my son math (and nothing else) for 12 years. Te teacher would spend endless hours on the "why" of the lesson, and after 3 minutes of the "how to do the problem" from Mom at home, my son would say "so that is all it was about???" </p>

<p>Unfortunately, years of that taught him to glaze over in class, and rely on Mom for his instruction--not a good lesson.</p>

<p>jlauer & token, can't we also agree that there are some kids who SHOULD be able to get high school diplomas that are not intellectually capable of Algebra II?</p>

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<p>To me this is the most interesting thing:</p>

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Fully 88% said they had passing grades in high school. Asked to name the reasons they had left school, more respondents named boredom than struggles with course work.

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<p>To me I think boredom is often an issue that the schools do not deal with well, even for those that stay in school.</p>

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<p>As someone who used to teach in California, I am very familiar with this problem.. ... But, we don't want schools to drop the standard just so English Learners can pass because then those kids won't do well in college. I used to teach a summer class that was designed just to help those English Learners improve their grammar and usage skills.</p>

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<p>Thank you CSDAD for verbalizing what I had been thinking about the Alg II teacher that my s had last year. She has a PhD but no personality and no "people skills". Your words summarize the problem perfectly.</p>

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<p>Absolutely.... that is why states that have increased their per pupil spending to unbelievable heights (D.C, for one) still don't see any improvements. </p>

<p>Kids need discipline- and it begins at home. There are so many reasons discipline is lacking these days and it's not just because of "single moms" (who often get targeted with this). There are many "intact" homes that spoil kids rotten and don't insist on obedience. </p>

<p>It's amazing how many kids don't even have to do any regular chores at home -- that is the first step of teaching discipline. It teaches kids to spend time on things other than "fun" or "self interest".</p>

<p>I once saw a Dr. Phil show where he had several couples who "thought" that they were doing a "good job" with their kids -- they love them, etc. But, it was obvious to Dr Phil that these parents were completely on the wrong track. He told them, "Most parents to the best that they know how to do." That hits the nail on the head. So many parents THINK that they are doing a good job, but in fact, are doing a lousy job and are causing the exact problems that they lament.</p>

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<p>jlauer & token, can't we also agree that there are some kids who SHOULD be able to get high school diplomas that are not intellectually capable of Algebra II?</p>

<p>First, I think, we need to determine WHO can't really learn it and who just would like to take the "easier way out". If a child's test scores are at a low level, then they should be on a "track" that allows them to graduate w/o Alg II. However, that track needs to include classes in other skills that will help them with their careers.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't take those responses at "face value". What drop out wouldn't say "boredom"? That removes the "blame" from himself. You see..."It's not my fault that I dropped out. It's the school's fault; the teachers were boring." Yes, some are boring but most are not!!! And it is a part of life that we have to endure some "boring" times. get over it. </p>

<p>I have yet to meet a drop out who admitted that he dropped out because he was flunking because he didn't do homework, didn't bother to read his texts, ditched classes, and/or fooled around while in class (no matter how interesting the class was).</p>

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<p>Expecting kids to be "obedient"? Are they puppies? Bad girl!</p>

<p>Seriously, though; there are some kids for whom school will always be a struggle, and they cannot pass for a variety of reasons, and lack of discipline MAY, but often is not, the only one. Enforcing discipline will not necessarily make more kids pass, when there are other issues interfering with learning, be they intellectual, emotional, social, familial, etc.</p>

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<p>Yes, I expect my kids to be obedient. If I say "no" about something, I expect that they won't do it. </p>

<p>Obedience is needed in life. We must obey government laws, school rules, home rules, office rules, etc. For that reason, responsible parents raise their kids to be obedient when they are little because they will have an easier time in life, later. (Those who haven't been taught to be obedient are the ones who end up having more troubles than necessary. They know that there are rules and laws but are just used to ignoring them.)</p>

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<p>I posted in a thread about April Fool's Day that my son had found an Algebra I progress report on the floor at school and brought it home and told me I had to sign it. The kid on the report had a 10.1% in Algebra I. It just makes me wonder about the chances of this kid graduating from HS. I just don't see it happening, how will he ever get through geometry and algebra II (required to graduate)? Our school offers supplemental classes that you take along with the required math classes, but you still have to pass those 3 required core classes. </p>

<p>It seems a lot of successful math students are getting extra help at home. My son is on the accelerated math track (in Algebra II right now) and gets A's or B's in math, but we have a guy come to the house for 2 hours a week to work with him on his math. I was a strong math student and took 3 semesters of college calculus, diff eq, numerical analysis, linear alg and a bunch of stuff I don't remember, but I haven't used it in years, don't have a clue how to use a graphing calculator, and do not have the gift of teaching, so when I try to help him, usually one or both of us ends up screaming at the other one. So how does a kid get extra math help at home when his parents can't help him and can't afford to hire a tutor?</p>

<p>Granted, the kid on the report may be a total slacker, but he only has 3 missing assignments, so it appears he is making some effort. I know we want our kids in general to achieve more, but I honestly believe that there are plenty of kids who are just not intellectually capable of passing these math classes. So why not just offer classes to reinforce their arithmetic skills so they can have the high school diploma and change tires at the Auto Barn, ring up your groceries, check out your videos, serve you your hamburgers, deliver your furniture, etc. These kids know they're not going to Harvard or MIT. It is distressing to me that these kids are set up to fail.</p>

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<p>There is the "rub".</p>

<p>As someone mentioned earlier, often those who are "good at math" lack the "verbal" (I call it social) skills to be effective teachers. That is why it is hard to find good math teachers (with the exception of my friend Kathy who taught AP Calculus with 100% passing record and was tragically killed in a car accident last July)</p>

<p>there is a "math disparity" when it comes to families -- some parents barely passed Algebra I. </p>

<p>Schools are just going to have recognize the need for good math teachers that also have the "teaching gene". If necessary, they need to provide free afterschool help -- and if the class is needed to graduate, then attendance at those tutoring sessions needs to be mandatory.</p>

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<p>I taught JA at our HS a few years ago. I was fairly amazed at the changes I saw. I had Jr and Sr kids in that class. A fair number were living on their own. That didn't happen when I was a kid (small town).<br>
Many were holding down FULL time jobs and supporting themselves. One kid made close to $40K a year driving a Pepsi truck. They were very interested in the real world. To teach them, you had to put things in a real world context. Once you did that, they ate it up. </p>

<p>Kids are much more worldly than we were at that age. They have sources of information beyond their parents and the 6:00 network news. The nuclear family is a thing of the past for many. </p>

<p>I agree that it starts in elementary school and it has to start with the parents. I remember a line from one of the kids in the Final Four. He was from a small east Texas town. They asked him how small it was. He said it was so small that if you got in trouble at a friend's house, his momma whipped you and when you got home your momma whipped you. I laughed because it was so true. When we got in trouble at school, your parents knew about it before you ever got home, and the home punishment was always worse. </p>

<p>My two cents worth on math, throw away the calculators until at least high school. Kids have no number sense today, and many can't do basic arithmetic.</p>

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<p>I think that schools do the best they can, there are not enough teachers qualified to teach math (and hard sciences) let alone be picky enough to hire teachers who are also great teachers. </p>

<p>I think that if you have a child who is great at math, they may not think about teaching. There are so many other avenues available to them that also pay better than teaching. It may be easier for schools to hire good language arts teachers because the pay scale for teaching is more in line with a BA in Liberal Arts.</p>

<p>Does anyone else think that there are different teaching methods which work better on different kids. My D likes her Alg. II teacher this year. She wants the kids to be self directed. She can explain things, but she wants the kids to try to solve the problems on their own first. She also moves very fast, my D loves it. She's not bored, she loves to figure out the problems on her own and if she needs help, she is eager to ask the teacher. But this is not a teaching style for many kids. They struggle with this class and the teacher is not very popular.</p>

<p>But I think that the teacher is teaching a very important concept. And she make clear her teaching style in the beginning of the year. The way she teaches math is a style that these kids will see in college. That you need to read a math book the right way and be able to learn from it and be able to ask the teacher questions if you have them.</p>

<p>I do agree that kids who have extra help at home are more successful. But my kids school offers so much help that every child could be successful if they worked at it. There are nominal tutors available as well as math lab, every day. But kids and their parents need to access the help that is available.</p>

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<p>Perhaps those who have "special skills" at teaching difficult math concepts should be hired to produce DVD's on specific concepts. Then if a kid is having trouble understanding a topic in class, he/she can watch the DVD of the "special skills" teacher teaching the concept.</p>

<p>Also, if such DVD's were ever made, those whose abilities to teach math are wanting, could also watch the DVD's and get some "pointers" on how to teach those concepts that trip kids up.</p>

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Obedience is needed in life. We must obey government laws, school rules, home rules, office rules, etc.

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<p>To an extent. Too much obedience is bad as well. Remember that obeying laws is only good to the extent that the laws themselves are good.</p>

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<p>I know many people will attack em for my views. </p>

<p>If USA is really serious about teaching math and scince then problem is not entirely schools fault. Many parents (Not all) are to be mostly resposnible as they are not involved in kids life. Single parents are busy managing thier own life. Kids grow up with MTV, lack of dicipline, indiiferent attitude towrds education and so many other issues on top of lack of financaila resources. parents do not explain and motivate kids bacuse of lack of education they have resoucres problems. Had they focused in life earler they would have done better in life. </p>

<p>I see lack of dicipline among studnets the biggest problem. Teachers are busy tending to trouble makers than busy teaching the kids. What techers does assign poor perfroming kids with better performing kids. However out side the clasroom nerd is made fun. Thus trouble makers kids are taught school is bad, education is meaning less. Why this kid who has no motivation will perform? parents will blame school system. and then it is the rat race that pour more money which may not be even solution. </p>

<p>Dicipline at home is the key as few posters have mentioned but parents wants to delegate that responsibility to techaers who are salaried people and bearly can be full time parent to students to all 20 kids in the calss. On top of it tecahers have their own kids to raise. </p>

<p>It is mantra of that someone is responsible for our kids except us.</p>

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<p>I don't think an elementary teacher has to be "great" at math, to teach basic math. However it has to be a value, something that they are willing to put thought and time into.
When teachers don't feel that high school students should need 4 years of math for a diploma, regardless of what level that dictates, when teachers can get away with not teaching long division or fractions in elementary school, when some childrens experience in math , is that they had higher expectations by teachers in 3rd gd than 4th or 5th gd, then students are not learning the math they need to go on to middle school.
our schools have "new- new" math
It is hard to tell what is being taught or expected, and even teachers have problems teaching their own kids.
<a href="http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/programs.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/programs.htm&lt;/a>
this is the math program my daughter had had in middle school- check the grade given by a review</p>

<p><a href="http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/books7a.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/books7a.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Schools where teachers had motivation and support to develop their own materials instead of only using books provided by the district, as well as had parents who were able to pay for outside tutors or do their own tutoring, had students who did ok in math.
Schools where teachers just used the material provided and didn't feel the need to supplement, and where parents didn't realize the need to supplement the curriculum and /or didn't have the resources, students did very badly.
Because this was often along income and even racial lines, the district, instead of seeing that the math program was perhaps to blame, but decided that it was because the teachers couldn't relate or teach adaquately "minority/poor" students, so they are putting extra funding to help teachers deal with their own prejudices.
seriously
I am obviously over simplyfying, but as someone pretty involved in the district- it seems that , that is what it boils down too
Since the extra training hasn't had enough result in dealing with " disporportionality" the teacher union is going to put lifting the levy lid on the fall ballot to raise more money for more training to aid minority students.</p>