Talk about a false equivalency.
A selective school like Philips Academy has a 13% admit rate among what are already very strong applicants.
TM Landry was willing to take any student with a pulse, as long as their parents could foot the bill.
I think I’d have a lot more sympathy for those hypothetical NJ kids if they had been forced to kneel on rice, choked, and told that colleges were watching them through cameras.
@hebegebe you are changing facts to fit your narrative: “Students and parents noticed the biggest shift when T.M. Landry moved in early 2017. The school’s population grew as the Landrys began recruiting high-performing students from other schools, particularly those with high ACT scores.”
You’d never get those parents to go along with the abuse, the ACT prep-in-lieu-of-real-classes, the self-teaching - they have much better educational options and they know it. The TM Landry parents were told they were forbidden to discuss school with their kids at all. And they were desperate enough that they agreed to that.
Are the wealthier schools just better at playing the game? Landry could have given those courses names and an outline, assigned students to them and used whatever inflated grade scale he wanted to. If he had, there’d be no need to falsify transcripts at all - they’d have been as real as at any other unaccredited school.
@OHMomof2
If the curriculum is tougher it makes sense for the grading to be laxer. However, I feel as though you and some others are trying to conflate two separate issues, to change the narrative. There is little to no proof of cheating at higher selective and prestigious prep schools; however, there is PROOF of massive cheating at TM laundry. Let’s not be facetious.
@OHMomof2 Sure, they could’ve been brainwashed or deceived, but did they really not expect something was up? I see how they could have sent transcripts without the student knowing but I don’t see how a student could be completely out of the loop on what their listed activities were, common app essays, etc… administrators could not have submitted all of these materials on behalf of the student without at least partial knowledge. Even in the case that they didn’t know anything, did they not think it was fishy that they weren’t doing anything in the college process on their own?
Also, what about wealthier schools? A large proportion of students at wealthy prep schools are extremely strong, qualified applicants and I don’t see how it’s fair at all to compare the two. For example, my school sends a majority of students to Ivies every year and I can testify that all these students are more than qualified.
I have never heard of schools like Phillips Exeter having a bad reputation of sending students who are not prepared for the rigor at ivy league schools.
@emorynavy , @yellowbean, @bluering I don’t think you understand what @OHMomof2 is saying. She is NOT saying that kids that go to prestigious wealthy schools or the schools themselves outright cheat and/or that kids go/get-sent to college unprepared. There are major issues here that can only be seen by stepping back and looking at the bigger picture:
1- It is rigged game setup in such a way that poor black kids such as those portrayed in the story are almost assured failure.
2- To play the game effectively both know-how and money (if at least to afford living in a “good school” zip code ) are prerequisites.
3- The game is rigged because those in the know push the game farther and farther away in legal and socially accepted ways (usually involves spending more money, but knowledge is the bigger variable here…) that may or may not be ethical. More and more hoops are voluntarily and enthusiastically added to the game in an attempt to give the illusion that kids on its community/tribe jump more and more hoops higher and higher each year (grade inflation comes to mind…) and as such are somehow better prepared for what comes next. More and more honors, ap classes, esoteric sports, extracurricular activities (I could go on forever…) AND pay to play exams/competitions/ceremonies where every kid gets tagged as being special for the adcom to see. And don’t forget to pay attention that kids do some actual schooling or the whole show I just described will be exposed as a total farce. After all there are more kids on the pipeline and the community must remain special (for a number of reasons including pride and real estate values…)…
4- This is not done to put down poor black kids directly but the game gets farther and farther away from them as they don’t even receive the “some actual schooling” part MUCH less sets and sets of extra hoops.
5- What they did at TM Laundry was gross on many, many levels but step away from the trees and look at the forest and it is possible that you will feel just as grossed out by what passes for the alternative…
Even more so at some at the top that are trying to elbow their way in not by denouncing the game but by literally kicking away the very few poor black kids that are still allowed to play in it.
I went to a top-5 prep school, and I can safely say that good grades did not come easily. I think it’s very easy to say that richer schools rig the game if you haven’t actually attended one, but I can assure you that the kids who earned top grades had to work extremely hard for them. I very much resent the accusation that the grades from students at more expensive prep schools are comparable to TM Landry’s falisification of transcripts. If you think prep schools are pumping out transcripts full of essay As you are sorely mistaken. Perhaps, if students at these prep schools have better grades, it is because they have to already be excellent students in order to be admitted to schools with sub-15% acceptance rates.
As someone who attended public school before attending prep school, I can safely say that I would’ve had a much better GPA if I had stayed at the public school.
But we’re getting off topic here.
No one is suggesting, saying or accusing " that the grades from students at more expensive prep schools are comparable to TM Landry’s falsification of transcripts" nor that you (or anyone else, I recall the story mentioned that the Wesleyan girl worked very hard at TM Landry for example…) didn’t work hard to earn your grades nor that prep schools are easier than particular public schools. On the contrary, I fully agree with what you are saying.
This is a spectrum, and you are right that it is not comparable, but we should take a peek at what goes on in the opposite end of a top 5 prep school and notice that they are barely receiving any crumbs much less anything remotely resembling the public school you went to (or a typical OK public school) before the top 5 prep. It is shameful for all of us that their choices were between that and TM Laundry…
Thank you @notigering for making my point clear.
@healthychair, @emorynavy - cheating is bad. I denounce it. here though, the degree to which the KIDS cheated vs the headmaster of this school cheated pretty clear. It seems in most cases the kids didn’t know the owner of this school was sending fake transcripts and lying in their recs, even submitting their app for them with false info. And if you think every kid in the US knows “how the common app process goes” and should have known the process to the degree that their school headmaster was not helping them but rather lying for them, you really live in a bubble. And remember, it was a CONDITION of attending this school that parents not discuss any aspect of the high school or its admissions process with their kids! They were told they had to stay out of it all completely. Do you see how this power vacuum created by Landry allowed him to take over the process for his own profit?
And yet, some blame the kid first.
Some kids did know that some of their app was exaggerated or fake (though none seemed to know the transcripts or see them) - some were told to exaggerate or lie about their family situation, some had their essays edited by someone in a position of authority at their school! Imagine that! (I am being sarcastic, there’s an army of kids with consultants and teachers and parents out there “getting help” with their essays, and do-we-doubt exaggerating their ECs somewhat? Or the wealthy “Here’s $5,000 junior, start a charity and we’ll talk about it on your apps…” Never mind outright giving the target college money to get the kid in, if the resources are there.
I see a lot of people who “work the system” - IMO cheat - much more than these kids did.
…not the headmaster, he outright cheated and lied and abused kids. For his own profit. I denounce THAT cheating 100%.
I never heard of that either. Then again until this expose we never heard about Landry having a bad reputation of sending students who are not prepared for the rigor at ivy league schools. On the contrary Landry has (and still has if you google) a great rep in regard to getting kids into Ivies.
However, high schools aren’t able to track their students throughout college, some of whom, even from PE, go to college and aren’t prepared or drop out or take longer or transfer or take a med leave. No one collects this data so it is not surprising that such a public reputation would exist. So how is that relevant to this?
OF COURSE many Landry kids were going to struggle in tough colleges, they were barely educated in high school! An education at PE is not even comparable, I can’t imagine what I said to make you think I suggested it was.
If top schools like PE were giving out easy As, it would show on their school profile. I very much doubt they are falsifying that.
But I totally agree that it’s easier to work they system when you are wealthy.
“And if you think every kid in the US knows “how the common app process goes” and should have known the process to the degree that their school headmaster was not helping them but rather lying for them, you really live in a bubble.”
If bubble you mean 90% of applicants sure. Most kids present an honest app, these are the ones applying to non-selective schools, community colleges etc… If you’re argument is that exaggeration happens at the extremes, really rich or really poor, sure that’s reasonable. Again as others have pointed out, you’re basic point is that every kid is dishonest in the college apps. If I have a tax accountant fill out my forms, and I sign it, and the IRS finds something not good, I am responsible, not my cpa, though he or she will not likely be my cpa any longer.
Of course @PetraMC ! PE has a relationship with top colleges going back to the 1700s. It’s not going to jeopardize those relationships with fraudulent transcripts and recs or even “easy As” for short term college acceptances. And PE doesn’t even offer the AP courses that can inflate GPAs as referred to in the article I quoted above. And PE parents are presumably very savvy about college admissions in any case, so are unlikely to hand over the entire educational and college admissions process even to a top boarding school, without any input or conversation about what’s going on.
TM Landry is like 10 years old. It’s unaccredited. It’s owned and run by one couple. It’s a scam, not a school.
Are these students really considered poor? I am certain my parents couldn’t afford $8,000 a year for school, without personal loans.
@ohmomof2 I agree with what you said regarding the fact that there are advantages that come with knowing how the college process works, which often come from wealth. I am not blaming the TM Landry kids at all, it is truly sad that their only options were an underfunded public school or an abusive prep school.
But to compare the dishonesty that happened at TM Landry with advantages earned from top prep schools is, quite frankly, absurd, and shows you are not familiar with how prep schools work.
I can only speak for my boarding school, though I have heard that the other T10 are very similar. These schools take their reputations of honesty with colleges very seriously, and the counselors look over apps and write about a students’ ECs in their GC recommendation (thus making it difficult for students to fudge extracurriculars). I’m sure it happens, but exaggerating extracurriculars is not the norm, condemned by these schools, and also done by people with no formal coaching. I don’t know a single person with a private admissions consultant (though, again, I’m sure it happens). Colleges know the difference between legitimate ECs and “Here’s $5,000 junior, start a charity and we’ll talk about it on your apps…” I’d actually argue that most students know that doing such a thing would only make them look like a spoiled rich kid, and would not think it was a smart move. Colleges are also aware that prep school kids have more extracurricular opportunities than say, kids at a rural public school in Louisiana, and those students are not held at the same standard in the admissions process. What I’m saying is, I think you have a very skewed perception of boarding schools.
Lest we forget that the top boarding schools also offer FA, and many of the students are not as rich as you may think they are.
@healthychair I went to a prep (day) school on financial aid,as it happens. I know how they work. I never compared them to Landry - the article I quoted in post #63 never compared them either, in fact it specifically said “public” -
I just don’t get how you see that as an attack on your own “top” prep school, or prep schools in general. What did I say that suggested that to you? Am I missing some comment I made to that effect? I agree with everything you said about prep schools and their college advising processes.
"I never heard of that either. Then again until this expose we never heard about Landry having a bad reputation of sending students who are not prepared for the rigor at ivy league schools. On the contrary Landry has (and still has if you google) a great rep in regard to getting kids into Ivies.
However, high schools aren’t able to track their students throughout college, some of whom, even from PE, go to college and aren’t prepared or drop out or take longer or transfer or take a med leave. No one collects this data so it is not surprising that such a public reputation would exist. So how is that relevant to this?"
High schools may not care to track their students beyond graduation, however ivy league schools can easily track which high schools send students who do well academically while staying engaged and active on campus. The colleges know which high schools are academically difficult, medium or easy. Has Cornell admitted another Landry student since admitting the first one in 2017? How about Harvard or Stanford, Wesleyan?
@emorynavy the NYT article describes the families as “working class”. And yes, it wasn’t cheap - $600 a month. That’s nothing like what a real, accredited private school charges for sure, but it’s not small potatoes for most families either. These families likely gave up a lot to pay that. There was no financial aid, despite many donations being made to the school that were earmarked for scholarships but none were offered.
It was a scam. For money. Really that’s the takeaway, for me. Students were the means to get the money.
Then, tuition was used as a mechanism for trying to get those families that became aware of what was happening to go along:
^ there’s more on that including an offer from Landry to suspend tuition if they’d lie (family said no and withdrew Yale app) but CC limits quotes from articles to 3 sentences. It’s all there at https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/us/tm-landry-college-prep-black-students.html .