This is specifically meant for seniors who are considering applying to top tier schools:
Do you have some kind of strategy for which schools you’re going to apply to? A lot of the qualified people I know apply to 15-18 schools and hope they get into one of them. Of course, the more schools that you apply to, the higher the probability of getting in.
I’d love to hear about what schools you are choosing to apply to and why. Thanks!
That’s false thinking. They are individual events and you can’t stack probabilities. A 3.0 GPA student with zero percent chance of being admitted to Stanford will not magically have a 25% chance of being admitted to one if she applies there plus Ivies+M. She’ll be rejected by all ten.
Plus, there’s diminishing returns. Is your 7th essay about why Dartmouth is your #1 choice really going to sound meaningful? Choose wisely. Good luck.
I’m sure you’ll get many more replies.
“Of course, the more schools that you apply to, the higher the probability of getting in.” Well, that would be true if it were really the lottery it’s often described on this site as being. But it’s not. The students I know either got multiple admits to top schools or they got none. Yes, there is some luck and arbitrariness to the process, so if you are serious about this, you should apply to more than the “2 reaches” which is also standard IMO poor advice you will get on this site. But I also think if the first 6 or so top schools don’t admit you, the ones you feel you fit in at best, then your chance of getting into numbers 7-18 is just about zero and your time would be better spent focusing on some less selective schools to have good choices in April.
There is a point of diminishing returns. If you simply aren’t competitive at this level, then you won’t get into any of them. That happens to plenty of students. 15-18 is a huge number of schools. If you don’t have time to write good essays for them, then you are just wasting everyone’s time and throwing away your money. My kid applied to 11 and couldn’t have handled many more. It’s simply not true that most students are applying to 15-18 schools, and I think the only reason to apply to anything like that might be if you are trying to win a big merit scholarship.
According to the Harvard crimson’s survey of matriculated 2016 freshmen: “Respondents applied to an average of 6.7 schools and were accepted to an average of 4.63”
So, as you can see, it is not at all normal to be applying to 18 schools. And, as I said, the kids who get into top schools generally get cross admitted to some others as well.
Just wanted to add, that average obviously includes recruited athletes and kids who got in EA and didn’t apply anywhere else. So the average among kids who applied more widely is obviously higher than 6.7 but I don’t think 15-18 is typical, if you look at their data, thought it’s a little hard to interpret that graph,.10 looks more typical. http://features.thecrimson.com/2014/freshman-survey/admissions/
Oh boy, if I had a dime for every time someone erroneously says “if you apply to enough reach schools, you will get into one of them.” Totally wrong. Please check out any of the umpteen threads with titles such as “I didn’t get in anywhere…Only got into my safety school…No acceptances!!!..Waitlisted everywhere…” Top grades and stats will only get you to the gate of the most prestigious colleges. Applying to 20 of the most selective colleges in the country still means you have a 96% chance of being rejected from Stanford and an 87% chance of being rejected by Duke. In fact, the chance of any single individual being rejected could be even higher depending on the school.
Just to play devil’s advocate, I would venture to say that if you are an Asian male from CA with perfect grades and top SAT scores, as well as impressive ECs (barring super prestigious awards such as Intel, etc…), your chances of being rejected by a college like Stanford are probably closer to 98%. Now let’s say you are a URM with excellent grades and test scores, and a range of ECs, from a low SES background. Let’s throw in the possibility that you are first gen to go to college, from a single parent family, and you have to work to help out the family too. I will put your odds at closer to, I don’t know, 80% chance of acceptance.
Totally making this up, and not trying to single out people. I am merely trying to illustrate that your theory is full of holes. Acceptances at colleges that practice holistic admissions will in no way be influenced by the number of colleges you apply to. You must remember that humans are choosing other humans. Computer algorithms might give you a general idea, but that is as close as you will get to predicting your chances.
Do not underestimate how important your essay and teacher recs will be, as well as ECs or important mitigating circumstances. These colleges are selecting a class of individuals. They want to admit people they like who they feel fit in. If you aren’t that person, you aren’t getting in. Submitting to all those other top 20 schools isn’t going to help you at all, UNLESS you happen to be the person they are looking for. Good luck.
I applied to 2 reaches, 3 matches, and 3 safeties, and got into all except my top reach (UChicago, so I wasn’t surprised). DO NOT shotgun the top 15-20 schools. That is a recipe for misery. Can you imagine balancing a rigorous courseload and all your ECs PLUS having to write 2-3 essays (maybe more) for 15 schools? That’s 30-45 amazing essays you have to churn out. I don’t think I’ve written 45 great essays (the calibre which you’d need to get into even one of those schools) in my entire life. And, like other posts have said, that might still get you nothing other than wasted money and effort.
A kid at my school shotgunned the Ivies and only had one safety (our state flagship, which he hated and thought he’d never have to consider). He did not get into any of the Ivies. Don’t be him. The correct “strategy” should be to only apply to schools that you love (and can afford, which is something I stupidly didn’t consider) individually, and not for prestige.
Thanks for the responses; to clarify, I meant that the chances of acceptance increase for qualified applicants as the number of schools they apply to increases. Sorry for omitting that detail. Also I don’t necessarily buy into the theory that I described, I just wanted to get thoughts on it. Thanks to everyone who gave them:)
I’d recommend keeping your selections even between safeties, targets and reaches. That way you’ll most likely have a good selection of schools you can choose from without spreading yourself too thin and risking 7+ rejections by applying to, say, all the ivy leagues (not saying this will happen, but many competitive applicants do get rejected by these schools).
Anyway, when applying to top tier schools, you should consider the following:
-Do not make your whole college list all top tier schools. This is very risky.
-Remember that personal componenets (essays, personal statements etc) have more importance with top tier schools. Say you had a 2200 SAT, 3.9 GPA and applied to a lower tier school. You’re basically guaranteed to get in based on the merit of your academic achievements. Because top tier schools basically have 80%+ of their applicants in the 2100+ SAT range with 4.0 GPAs, they need to put more focus on other aspects of the application for comparison.
-Don’t apply to a school unless you like it. This applies for every school. If you only want to go somewhere because of its prestige but don’t visit it to get a feel for the campus and community, you’ll find yourself with more problems down the road. That isn’t to say adapting to college life isn’t hard, but it’s better to connect with the school you want to go to.
I guess most important of all:
Don’t overestimate or underestimate yourself. Don’t get overconfident and half-heartedly fill out your app for these colleges. But don’t give up hope and think you don’t have a shot. As long as you let your personality shine through, anything is possible.
OK, I’m curious. All these kids you know who are applying to 15-18 top schools–what kind of results are they getting?
I’m doing 3 safeties 3 reaches 4 matches
If I get into my EA school I’ll probably apply to some more reaches (3-4) with a couple matches/safeties (2-3). If I don’t get into my EA school, I’ll probably do 3 reaches, 5 matches (schools where I’m at/ above average in stats/qualifications), and a safety or two.
I honesty think my ECs, essays and recs are going to save me lol (although my stats are good too).
Again, OP, your thinking is flawed. Having stats in the top 25th percentile for Top 20 colleges certainly might give you a slightly better chance than kids whose stats fall in the middle 50 percent. But your odds are NOT going to be any better by applying to all top 20 collegs in the hopes you get into one of them. Please re-read my post. Once you get to those colleges with acceptance rates in the teens and below, all bets are off.
I am trying to find a great thread posted this past April by a young man who tried the top 20 or bust strategy. He had incredible stats, and some major awards such as national math Olympiad winner and other national prizes. He applied to his state flagship as a safety and that is where he will attend because it was the only school he got into. He reflected on his mistakes and was very humble in acknowledging his misjudgment. It is clear that this young man is very intelligent and well-rounded, but it seems that his essay might have been his weakness in his estimation, if I recall. It was an interesting read.
Anyway, if you want to to try that approach, I wish you luck, but for the sake of your parent’s pocketbook, and for your own sense of self-worth, you would be far better off applying to a range of colleges you are actually interested in attending and can hopefully get into. Are you really equally enamored of each of the Top 20 colleges in the nation? Will you be able to write convincing essays that illustrate why you are a good fit for each of these individual colleges? If you are, then I applaud your versatility, and I sincerely hope that each of those colleges can see why YOU would be a great fit for them. I, for one, have a hard time picturing the “ideal” Brown candidate being happy at Duke. Or the Duke candidate being happy at MIT. Or the MIT candidate being happy at Dartmouth, and so on. These colleges are individual and have their own personalities. If you assume that these colleges have nothing to differentiate them other than names, you will fare poorly in this strategy.
You seem to think the goal here is to get into a top tier school. The goal is to get into a school which suits you. Both my kids highly value being at a school with high-achieving students, which generally correlates with prestige, but a lot of schools can be eliminated based on program offerings, size, location, etc.
As far as strategy goes, my daughter applied to state flagship and a safety where she was admitted early, and she was able to find 7 top tier schools which she preferred to our flagship and even that wasn’t so easy. Concerned about the low admission rates, I suggested 3 slightly less selective schools, and she added 2 of them somewhat reluctantly, visited the third and didn’t want to apply. If you want to load your application list with reaches, just make sure you have an early admission to a school you are willing and able to attend. You don’t want to be one of the kids who is surprised to be rejected from their safety along with all those reaches and has to choose between gap year and cc.
My second kid, rising junior also with top notch stats so far, has maybe 4 top tier schools and 2 state schools on her list. I’m struggling a bit to find ideas for more schools for her. There’s no way she would just go down someone’s “Top 20 most prestigious colleges” list and fling out applications to all of them.
@mathyone In my group of close friends that is applying with this strategy, the results are random but most have gotten into 3-5 schools including 2-3 ivies (this was this past year, class of 2020).
@ap012199 Out of curiosity, why would you apply to match schools if you got into your EA school?
@Lindagaf I’d love to read that thread if you find it. I guess in response to your comments on my thinking, I miscommunicated what I thought. I understand that numbers alone cannot predict chances/probability of acceptance, but if a school would accept you, and you don’t apply to it, then you’ll never know that they would have accepted you if you would have applied (hopefully that makes sense) so if you want to go to a top 20 school you are better off applying to all of them in case one might accept you, not because there is now a greater probability that one will. In response to your last paragraph, I understand your point and I’ve been able to see the distinctions in personality of these schools as I’ve visited them. I will say, though, that within these differing personalities exists a common aura/atmosphere that propagates organically just from the caliber of students there. So I still understand why people would apply to all of these top 20 schools, searching for this rare environment of diligence and curiosity that (quite frankly) doesn’t exist in most state universities or those of lower rank (or so I’ve found throughout my college search).
Finally, for reference, I don’t plan on using this strategy. I will be applying to 10 schools or less, including safeties and matches.
OP, if you’d like to post your stats and what your interests and preferences are, I’m sure you can get suggestions on schools to apply to from some very experienced parents. Most posters on this site frown on reach-heavy lists, but if that’s the sort of school you are interested in, I do agree with you to some extent, the usual advice dispensed around here to limit yourself to 2-3 reaches could easily leave you empty handed even if you are quite competitive in this pool.
It is also very important to go through the financial implications of your choices with your parents. Many parents have no idea how much college is going to cost them and it’s sad when they find out after the kid is accepted that they cannot afford that school.
My strategy has been fairly simple I suppose. I visited my local state school and liked it. So I had an easy safety chosen already. I visited a few schools (found what I liked & didn’t like). Decided that I’d apply to all my remaining schools that I enjoyed regardless of selectivity because I had a safety that I did enjoy so it doesn’t matter too much if I get rejected from the rest of my schools.
That’s a good number to apply to, but now I will bite your head off:-)
On what planet does Amherst qualify as lacking in intellectually curiosity? Or Kenyon, or University of Rochester, or UIUC, or umpteen other amazing colleges that are not in the top 20? If your “research” has led you to believe that intellectualism exists at only top 20 collleges, then I am here to bash you over the head with a great big wake up call. Does it not occur to you that there are MANY incredibly gifted and intellectual students who don’t attend top 20 universities because they can’t afford to? Or maybe, shock horror, because they like other colleges better? If you are looking for smart kids, look for those who were smart enough to accept a full ride or huge scholarships at some of the excellent colleges that are “below” your list of top 20. Look at some of the honors colleges at state universities. Look at some of the incredible LACs, which are easily on par with Harvard or Stanford in terms of intelligence, and stats, and probably even better in terms of student research opportunities. Look at Princeton Review’s list of best professors in the country. Kenyon College has eight. Harvard has two.
Your contention that top 20 colleges share a common air of intellectualism might be correct, but they also share that intellectualism with MANY universities and colleges that are nowhere near the Top 20. Some colleges are known for intellectualism, and if that is what you are looking for, apply to those. But I wouldn’t say Dartmouth is known for intellectualism in the way U Chicago is.
Why are you better off applying to all top 20 colleges just in case one accepts you, if you are not a good fit for that college? There is no way you can convince me that your goal is not simply to get into the most exclusive college you can. Call a spade a spade. I hope for your sake you are able to show adcoms why they should accept you over any of the other equally, or maybe even less qualified, but possibly more human, candidates than you. It isn’t just about stats at those colleges.
Someone posted a thread back in April asking students who got into multiple top 20 colleges what they thought was the tipping factor. It made for interesting reading, and you can probably easily find it with a title similar to what I just said. Not surprisingly, several of the students who replied seemed to be high-achieving URMs. If you are hooked, your chances are better, but without a hook, you are just one of the many thousands who will most likely NOT get inot a top 20 college next year. Be prepared by “researching” some of those “lower tier” colleges, so that you have a college to go to in 2017.
Thanks for your response. I’ve spent a few weeks on an ivy campus and found intellectualism unparalleled by lower-tier schools. I have many safe options but I’m confident that I can get into a good school. In my opinion, intellectualism trumps fit and I don’t see a problem with this, even though I anticipate disagreement:) seriously, though, thanks for the time you’ve put into this thread
Interestingly, both Amherst and Kenyon and schools that I’m strongly considering:)
If intellectualism is important to you, then that is “fit.” Fit is what is important to any given student, and fit is what the colleges that prioritize that factor want. There are some very seasoned CC folks who can give you some great colleges to apply to if you want to prioritize intellectualism. Post over in the college search and selection forum and you will get some great suggestions. Off the top of my head, I would say that JHU, U Chicago, and Northwestern are probably good reaches for that. Also remember that, IMO, any school with an under 20% acceptance rate is a reach for everyone.