to start a firm

larationalist · April 30, 2007, 12:54pm

cheers, my statement specifically said that the change happens from the bottom up, and has not reached the top yet. Your demand of such lists indicates to me that you either did not read the statement or did not comprehend the concept. (Though I must mention since you included faculty as one point that Toshiko Mori, the head of the GSD, is a woman who inspires outright awe in her students. Maybe you were confused by the name and thought she was a man?)

Non-designer paths include: office/business management, construction management (or "getting things built"), or switching over to the 'client' side of life to do construction/development oversight for large corporations or universities. I know several people who particularly found this last option very fulfilling, because they were able to influence more by developing the program, budget, and selecting the architect for a project than they ever could have as designing it themselves, because they could of course veto anything they didn't like that came from the architect.

larationalist · April 30, 2007, 1:05pm

Just to put this in perspective- the reason I fight so hard against cheers's "granite ceiling" view of the profession is that I feel it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you believe that everyone's out to keep you down and you have to fight back against the man, you will make yourself such an unpleasant person to work with that everyone WILL want to keep you down. Any hardships which I've experienced in this profession have been a result of my youth (as evidenced by young men facing the exact same situations), not as a result of my sex. Other women from my class are getting great jobs, and suceeding at those jobs, many of which include construction management, which is one of the primary areas in which cheers seems to think women will have a very hard time. I myself have worked on the construction side of life, and experienced no prejudice at all there, and am respected in my current job for my knowledge of the construction industry. Any disadvantage which I experience, I observe my male co-workers to be experiencing to the same degree.

cheers · April 30, 2007, 4:04pm

la--you are opting out of the profession--as I understand it? To graphics? That's great--but my message is that there is a pathway for women to design major buildings. Far from saying that women will have a hard time in the contruction field--I say that many women architects are unprepared for the all-male environment of construction. It's a very aggressive environment--especially on large scale projects. Women are a unexpected presence--but that is not to say that young male architects don't feel some of the same awkward feelings. I know they do--but I think they expected it and they stick with it until they find their footing.

That knowledge hasn't made me 'unpleasant' to work with--that's a streotype you are putting on older feminists. We're sort of saying the same thing, la but my message to the profession and the schools is that their efforts to integrate women into high-design positions aren't good enough.

As I said, schools have been 25% female since the 70s, 50% female since the early 80s. Forget a learning curve. The profession is not taking women up to the highest levels of design.

Some schools, like Yale, have significant female faculty. Some schools have significant female heads. That's not my point--although it is a little annoying that the female heads sponsor all-male lecutre series and student publications with 90% male student work.

The 98% male majority in cutting edge design and major buildings is not good enough--and it has profound implications for female student and young interns like yourself, la.

Far from being stuck in the 80s, I am battering against the design pittance that is handed to women in the profession. I've learned a few things and I would like to share them. More knowledge is a good thing, in my book.

rick, thanks for the patronizing suggestion that there are other non-design paths for women to follow, duh. I don't want those leftovers, thanks. I went into the profession to design and create and whaddya know--that's what I'm doing.

But you can prove to me that the 80s are over, rick:

Post up established firms with female design partners at the head.

Post the list of speakers for any architecture school lecture series.
Post the female winners of the Pritzker Prize.
Post the female designers of major built buildings since 1990.
Post the percentage of female work shown in ANY grad school publication.
Post the female AIA award winners for major, non-residential work
Post the names of the female FAIA members who are lead designers of major built work.

I will tell you something else for free. In 2007, you don't need a big firm to get big work. That's an 80's myth and a sure fire way to make less money.

Cutting edge 3D software and global collaboration make it possible to design and document very large buildings with a few talented architects in-office.

larationalist · April 30, 2007, 4:32pm

My opting out of the profession has nothing to do with it. I'm leaving not because of any gender bias at all, or even a thought that I "can't take the treatment" or any of that such thing, but because it was a poor choice for me in the first place, which I made when I was about 15 years old (god, who does make good choices at that age?!).

I look at my bosses, both female and male, and realize that I wouldn't enjoy the life they have or the work they do, and I look at my colleagues who get so incredibly excited about things which make me go "really, this excites you?" and that tells me that I don't love it enough. So leave that out of your arguement about women being mistreated or under-represented, because a person of any gender can find themselves in an industry that just doesn't light their fire.

soozievt · April 30, 2007, 4:39pm

I don't know if it is accurate to think that most females (OR males) going into architecture aspire as their goal to be a be a top designer in a top arch firm in NYC designing major buildings. I have a daughter who is training to become an architect and I have never heard her define her goals in those terms. To me, she will be a success if she finds work as an architect in any size firm doing any type work in any city or town, as long as the work is satisfying and doing what she wants to do. In fact, I doubt she wants to settle in NYC long term. While she has always been a go getter and sets high standards for herself, her goal is not to be the star architect at the star firm in NYC. I think her goal is to be an architect doing the types of work she would like to do, wherever that may be.

I liken this to my other daughter who is training for a degree in musical theater. Her goal is not narrowly defined to make it on Broadway. I think that is not the main goal as very few do make it to the Great White Way (though she has a chance at it), but I believe she will be a success if she gets satifying work as a musical theater performer. I believe her goal is more broadly defined beyond "Broadway."

I also have no concerns with the fact that they are WOMEN in their fields. There are many women in the arch training programs. And there are women who are successful architects. I don't think the definition of "success" is the same for all people. Being a woman, so far, has not been a disadvantage. I guess the rest remains to be seen.

rick12 · April 30, 2007, 4:59pm

cheers, I'm glad you really wanted to be a designer and managed to achieve it, so did I. The difference is that I don't belittle the other jobs in the profession. "leftovers", "CAD Monkeys", is that how feel about the other people in your office who are not the 'designers'? Of course I don't even know if you have employees.

For the folks on the board who have asked about the other positions, let me just give a real example. We have a $100 million corporate headquarters that we won in a competition with three other firms. It is now nearing completion. Two of us did the competition design, another design pricipal and I. The managing pricipal was involved through the entire competition, helped present it to the owner and made significant design suggestions. He has followed through with the job, is the main point of contact for the owner and all the consultants, and has made trips to Spain and China to oversee the production of building components. He is a very talented and motivated individual.

There were also three different project leaders, each with two intern architects working under them who developed different parts of the building. They made pretty significant design contributions in the areas where they worked. The interns did an assortment of tasks, including 3D renderings, construction detailing, and small design tasks. Some of these intern architects may eventually develop into designers, and some may become managers.

If you talked with these folks they would not use CAD monkey or leftover to describe what they do. I think they would tell you they were making a real contribution to a significant project.

If you are making as much money in your small firm as pricipals in large firms, then congratulations, you are not typical. Every salary survey that I have ever seen shows a direct correlation between firm size and principal compensation. That is the reality of service firms. If you are telling the young people on this board to start their own firms without money and without a license, then you are not giving good advice.

rick

Tzar · April 30, 2007, 6:06pm

Rick—everything that you said might be well and good—but what about someone like me, who WANTS to be the principle designer in a firm,---who wants to be on the design side of things. Is it good advice to open up your own firm before the age of 30? I was looking up some of the major architects of the past and they all seemed to follow a route where they did open their own firm fairly early in their careers. Bottom-line-- If you are trying to get to the top and you believe you will be able to compete with other designers at a high level---- do you open your own firm before or around 30???

momrath · April 30, 2007, 8:44pm

Could we please quantify here? How many architects make a small, medium, large firm? What's the ratio of architect to other?

My son is just getting starting in what will be for him a long road to becoming an architect and I'm trying to learn the ropes.

And Tzar, there's no one age that fits all. At 30 I was unemployed (by choice) and about to embark on a 3 month mountain journey. At 60 I run a medium sized company (70 employees and growing) in a third world country in a male dominated field and have no financial worries. You just don't know where life will lead you.

rick12 · April 30, 2007, 9:11pm

Tzar, by all means pursue your dream, but do it with eyes wide open. I don't think that there is a magic age by which time you must open an office. If you want to improve your chances for success I would suggest a few things;

<ul>
<li>Get a job with a significant design firm that gets notable commissions. Stay in the firm at least long enough to get some responsibility and recognition for your work. You need an owner reference when you want to convince someone that you played a major role on a project. If you can't get this responsibility go to another firm. If you ignore this and open your firm doing a friend's house addition, you can still have success, but it is a long hard road convincing someone to give you a museum or college building if all you can show is residential.</li>
</ul>

-Get registered, and do it as quickly as possible. It is a bear these days, and you do not want to get caught cheating on this.

<ul>
<li>Save some money. It will give you operating capital and peace of mind when you turn down that crappy commission for the Pizza Hut down the street.</li>
</ul>

-Join all kinds of organizations where you can meet potential clients. These might include museums and art organizations. Volunteer your time, this is how you will get recognized.

-Find a partner who likes to do the things you don't and who complements your skills. Someone who can find good work, and can worry about administrative issues will give you the luxury of being able to focus on design.

You may be able to accomplish the above by 30, or it may take you till you are in your mid-thirties. By all means do it before 40. Good luck with your dreams, don't lose them along the way.

rick

vyan · May 1, 2007, 2:07am

^ mind answering my questions

rick12 · May 1, 2007, 7:49am

Vyan, let me see if I can answer your question without posting my W2.

BS Architecture-Ohio State
MArch-Clemson
Worked 4 years, got registered after 2. I was making 21k when I went back to school.
MS Architecture and Building Design-Columbia University

9 years at KPF as an Associate Principal in design making 85k when I left.

At 38 joined as co-owner of a small practice in Texas. My partner did the marketing, I did the hiring and design. Partners all made 75k + share of profits. Did not have any bonuses for 4 years while we grew the firm. In the early 90's we struggled to make payroll. When we got to 30+ people we began to make some money; about 200k a year. The last few years on our own we were at 46 people and our bonuses were about four times our annual salary.

We merged seven years ago with an architecture/construction/software/real estate firm. I am now one of 10 partners in the firm which has about 750 employees with 80 architects. I am now 52.

I wanted to design big buildings, and every firm I joined was based on the opportunities that I would get rather than the salary. I never expected to make much money in this profession, as long as I got to design I was OK with that. The last few years have been a pleasant surprise.

BTW; I am here for a reason. My daughter wants to be an architect and she sent her acceptance in to Stanford last night. She will probably go the 4+3 route with a product design major in undergrad. I am very excited for her.

rick

momrath · May 1, 2007, 7:35pm

rick, 7 years at Stanford! You'll need that bonus. :)

Seriously, congratulations to her and to you.

Rick/Cheers,
How would you define small/medium/large in an architecture firm?

Is 80 architects out of 750 employees a typical ratio? Would the non-architects have some architecture background?

My son has will soon graduate from an LAC with a degree in art history and studio. He has accepted a job at what appears to be a good small (?) firm -- 50 employees -- in what appears to be the marketing area, but evidently he'll be involved across a wide spectrum of events. I'm a little vague on the whole chain of command and responsibility. If he likes what he experiences he will get an MArch. Interestingly the senior partner of this firm has a BA, a law degree and an MArch.

vyan · May 1, 2007, 9:17pm

^ thanks rick. how old were when you were making 85k? when you entered the firm, did you started making 85k as a design principal with a m.a degree?

^ thats what i plan to do when i get into college. Got into ucb and ucla, both B.A of architecture, and then ill go the 3 years M.arch and decide to pursue a M.arch II if i want to teach. I was thinking of double majoring in business or something like that as well. But for some reason, engineering's pay has lured me into changing my major. Im quite in a pickle right now. I love to do architecture, just I cant stand the pay when we get out of school. Unless someone tells me its stable like an engineers pay? maybe 40-50k?

sashimi46 · May 1, 2007, 9:45pm

i think it is dangerous to decide one career over another simply because one's starting salary pay is probably 10k more than the other. architecture and engineering are VERY different fields and the type of experience you'll get and what you learn in college will be very different.

the pay sucks once you get out. and that's understandable because arch grad aren't that "useful" in the real world because they have not acquired all of the skills and experience necessary. designing a building requires a lot of responsibility and experience, and that privilege won't be automatically handed to you once you get out.

but because architecture salaries are far more dependent on experience, you have more opportunity to earn more than the typical engineer later on...especially if you become principal. engineering starting salaries are high but they don't rise as fast as architect salaries year by year. but again, it's difficult to generalize because the work environment, type of work, and other factors also contribute to how much you earn. I bet you most principals earn more than most engineers..but that only comes after years of low pay and competition with other grads for jobs.

vyan · May 1, 2007, 9:47pm

^ good point sashimi...

....drools.

Tzar · May 2, 2007, 1:29am

I have been told numerous times by just about everyone that “If you are in it for the money you should just get out while the getting is good”. Sashimi is probably right that most principals make more than the average Engineer, however the average architect statistically makes much less than the average engineer. It is hard to become a principal in a firm—and competition is fierce— Architecture is more of a risk- but I would say that if you aren’t sure about it, think you might not want to put in the hours, care about the pay too much, --the architecture field might not be what you are looking for. That said, you are going into a BA program- which means you can switch out later on if you don’t feel that you want to do architecture. Figure out if this is for you and determine if you want to take this route. The question is > How much do you love this field and can you “make it”?

I also have a feeling engineering isn’t completely a matter of numbers/ math if you don't want it to be—it isn’t design for the most part – however Werner Sobek is doing some experimental stuff—more “inventive”, that might be right up your ally. Life is what you make of it- nothing is iron clad.

snipanlol · May 2, 2007, 2:34am

"nothing is iron clad"

One of my studio-mates models are.

rick12 · May 2, 2007, 6:49am

Architecture is like law and many other professions; if you are motivated, passionate and graduate near the top of your class at a good school, then you will make a good living at this profession. We work pretty hard to find the best students, and our starting offer out of school is 45k. We have made five job offers this Spring, and so far are 0 for 2. All of these kids have at least 3 to 5 other offers. Of course this is a crazy market, but the best students will always do well.

People say new graduates don't know anything, but I will take potential over experience any day. The best students make contributions from the day they walk in the door. They can make mistakes from lack of experience, but talent and motivation go a long ways.

I tell people that architecture is not a profession, it is a cult. You will know when you take a design studio in college whether you are cut out to be an architect. The studio experience is like nothing else you will experience in college. If you do not love it, then go find something else to do. If you were cut out to be an engineer, you will know it after your first semester in studio. Trust me on this.

rick

sashimi46 · May 2, 2007, 10:26am

haha totally...i agree with rick. architecture studio is a very unique experience. arch students are a totally different kind of breed compared to other students on campus.

cheers · May 2, 2007, 5:35pm

la..you may or may not discover why the practice of architecture doesn't light your fire. all I can say is that you are not alone. You have many many female compatriots who are equally dissatisfied and disenchanted. This is not happenstance, IMO. The rate of disenchantment among women is directly related to the lack of design opportunities.

That's been my observation. It is my opinion only. Feel free to ignore.

By example, there are a number of other talented, Ivy-educated female architects on this board. Yet they don't contribute to the CC architecture threads because they do not feel they are practicing in the mainstream.

Why do they feel they are not in the mainstream? My guess is that it is related to the size of their projects (small), the amount of high design they are allowed to do in their projects (minimal) and the type of project (residential). I'm guessing--but those are similar things I've heard from my female friends who run small residential practices.

rick, congrats on the completion of your $100M project--and the Stanford acceptance for your D.

Momrath, congrats on his job! Woot!

There are many many different types of practices. rick appears to be a partner in a development/construction firm which has 80 staff architects producing super-large scale work.

I am a partner in a small design firm which does medium to large scale work. My interest and passion is pursuing high art in built architecture. It's an old person's game. It takes forever to pull the talent and experience together. Decades.

In general, even though the money can be better, it is tough to maintain high-design standards in a development/construction firm. That is the reason many architects do not choose that path. For instance, there are no Pritzker Prize winners who are partners in a development construction firm. Maybe rick will be the one to break that mold--but that's been the history of the profession.

My advice is specific. It is geared toward students (especially women) who want to pursue a satisfying, high design career with good lifestyle flexibility and good income. It sounds like rick is making $800k a year which is more than high design architects make at 50. They might make that amount at 75 or 80 but not 50.

On the other hand, without giving out my tax statements, I can say that once I opened my own firm, I made good money (50% better than my corporate peers) with a great lifestyle (three times the holidays of my corporate peers--plus a travel budget).

For my specific aim--developing a high design practice--opening a firm at age 28 without a license and without much cash--was a great choice--actually the ONLY choice since I didn't have cash or a license. ;)

Of course, I wasn't an idiot. I knew the history of many other high design architects.

[quote]
Richard Meier (born October 12, 1934 in Newark, New Jersey) ...earned a Bachelor of Architecture degree from Cornell University in 1957, worked for Skidmore, Owings and Merrill briefly in 1959, and then for Marcel Breuer for three years, prior to starting his own practice in New York in 1963.

[/quote]

I doubt he had his license when he opened his firm because Meier had to take the exam five times to pass it and you can only take it once a year.

Gehry opened his firm at age 32 after a few years apprenticeship.

Gwathmey started his firm at age 33 after 9 years as an apprentice.

Stephen Holl opened his office in New York at age 29--although he was also teaching at the AA in the late 70's. I know he didn't have any money because he used to go down and shower at the YMCA. No shower or bath in his apartment. I'm not sure he was supposed to be living in there, LOL.

Thomas Mayne opened Morphosis when he was 28--and he started SCI-Arc that same year.

Zaha Hadid joined Rem Koolhaus after graduation and became a partner in OMA at age 27.

Anyway, the list goes on and on. I followed a well-established--but not well publicized--path to opening and maintaining a successful architecture practice, one that is dedicated to exploring the high art aspects of built work.

In my opinion, to have independent success in the high design area of the profession, it is essential to open your practice early in life. You certainly don't need a title from an established firm to do so. Staying in a firm for more than a few years signicificantly reduces your ability to open a traditonal architecture practice which focuses on high design--that's been my observation.

Also, I don't live archtiecture as a cult. I never have. I don't promote cultish behavior in my office. I never have. Even though I do love studios of all kinds, I think architects over-dramatize the lifestyle. Painters and sculptors don't go around crowing about their long hours. I'm not crazy about that aspect of the profession but lots of archtiects wear it as a badge of honour.

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