<p>I doubt that any state's situation matches well with that in Mass where higher education is perhaps THE leading industry. Unfortunately, the presence of so many private colleges has led to a neglect of funding for the UMass system, which makes it less affordable for poor and middle class families whose children are not competitive for the expensive private colleges.</p>
<p>marite:</p>
<p>I agree with you. When a first-rate public university system doesn't have a good business reason to exist, or is unaffordable for a small state, the middle class and poor would appear to get hurt.</p>
<p>Marite - very well said ^^</p>
<p>Tarhunt, let me clarify.</p>
<p>Mentally, I was including metropolitan New York and the Philadelphia area in my frame of reference for NJ. Though not literally within the boundaries of NJ, lots of NJ college applicants think of Columbia, Pennsylvania, Haverford, Byrn Mawr (and even Lafayette and Lehigh) etc. as "local" private schools.</p>
<p>And LOL at you for forgetting Princeton.</p>
<p>LakeWashington:</p>
<p>Princeton? What's a Princeton?</p>
<p>Yep. On second thought, I think NJ benefits from private schools outside its borders and that benefit may make it more likely to neglect public ed. Thanks.</p>
<p>In essence, we've established that college systems respond to market pressures. In Texas, the state system is geared to educating the masses and Texans are (for the most part) willing to let the brightest students go OOS. In Massachusetts and the NE metropolitan areas, there is greater choice and competition among elite colleges and less need or demand for state-funded universities.</p>
<p>I noticed a thread on FSU's efforts to enhance its faculty and academic quality. In addition, we're all familiar with public universities that lure NMFs with full-ride scholarships and special honors programs. These are classic market responses that move consumers (college students) into new markets (from elite colleges to large public universities). As long as the supply of college students continues to dramatically increase, there will be enough consumers to supply both venues. Similarly, if large public universities continue to increase tuition costs, elite private colleges will retain their market dominance. If either variable changes, however, the bubble may burst.</p>
<p>DRJ:</p>
<p>I would not say there is less need for public higher education in Mass. But the folks whose kids are more likely to attend UMass do not have the same clout as the folks whose kids attend private colleges.</p>
<p>University of Michigan is a disgrace if you look at their tuition for in-state vs. out-of-state students. Michigan, I heard, is almost 35% OOS students.</p>
<p>DRJ:</p>
<p>My overall point, though I didn't state it, was that market pressures help drive the direction of public education. I didn't mean to imply that they were the only driver.</p>
<p>For instance, the public higher education system in Virginia evolved, to the best of my knowledge, largely by accident. I'm told that the system in NC was better thought out, but I don't know for sure. I know nothing of its evolution in CA and Michigan.</p>
<p>I'm also not suggesting that each state ends up with the best system for that state. I believe that places like Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, etc. would benefit a great deal from an influx of talent, but they have not chosen to construct their systems to make that happen. </p>
<p>The thread started out approaching the issue based on principles instead of market forces. I believe that principles play a large part in decisions in state legislatures. I also believe that state legislatures often don't even understand how best to structure their systems of higher ed to maximize ROI.</p>
<p>Marite,</p>
<p>Yes, but that's the way markets work. They are consumer-driven because they are based on who can pay for the product or service. Massachusetts is a state that has a glut of expensive higher education products. The people of Massachusetts may decide to expand public higher education, a product that would have a lower profit margin given the existing glut, but it wouldn't be a good allocation of resources given the available colleges in the Northeastern US. It might be a good charitable decision but then you have to decide if it's the best way to use charitable resources.</p>
<p>Tarhunt,</p>
<p>I agree that there are more than market forces at work. Higher education reminds me of health care/insurance because they are sensitive (and appropriately so) to social tinkering and goals. You and I, living in our wealthy states, may view it as short-sighted not to place a greater value on higher education. The people in Mississippi may have other priorities or may have to make different choices in allocating their limited resources. </p>
<p>Overall, I think it's better for most states to educate as many people as possible with a basic (or even substandard, compared to HYPS) college education rather than allocating a disproportionate amount of resources into providing a superior education to a much smaller number of students.</p>
<p>DRJ:
I don''t know that I would characterize legislative decisions as "the way the market works."+ It seems to boil down to the fact that people who cannot afford the HYPM-level college costs have neither the political nor the economic clout. Mass ranks near bottom in funding public higher ed. I do not believe that better funding of public higher ed is charity any more than funding public k-12 is.</p>
<p>Marite,</p>
<p>Compulsory K-12 education is a public benefit just like welfare and other benefits funded by taxpayers for the common good. Higher education is, at least at present, a privilege. In any event, I can't see why Massachusetts would want to spend money on more colleges with so many in that region. It makes more sense to fund scholarships or vouchers so lower income students can go to the existing colleges.</p>
<p>DRJ:</p>
<p>Despite the plethora of private colleges, I doubt they could absorb the population of students who attend the UMass-system.
It could make more sense to fund scholarships or vouchers, but the legislature has not chosen to do so.
I don't see higher education as a privilege but as an investment for the future, both from the point of view of the individual and of the community, whether at the state or national level. An expensive education is a privilege, whether at HYP or at a private prep school. But affordable public education should not be, especially in Mass which does not have natural resources and has lost its manufacturing base.</p>
<p>Having seen what goes on at Zoo Mass, I would say parents considering paying either in or out of state tuition consider alternative plans. It is far too expensive for the return on investment, IMO. Our state government has allowed our "Flagship School" to fall into disgrace, which really is unfortunate.</p>
<p>A state as education-minded as Massachusetts should have as fine a state institution as Michigan or Virginia. But instead, I think our flagship is more in line with the likes of Mississippi (or so it seems; don't quote me on that one, since I have no statistics to back it up).</p>
<p>One of the things I noticed about students in MA is that I never once heard my children (3) or their friends say, "I really want to go to UMass." The students who ended up at UMass went there for one of two reasons: their parents could not afford the cost of a private or oos or their parents would not pay for a private or oos. There seems to be no pride in attending our flagship school and that is a real shame.</p>
<p>dogwood - I think MOST kids in the NE/middle atlantic states don't want to go to their flagship state - regardless of quality. Here in PA, we have a top 50state U with great business and engineering programs and very happy students. But the students at my son's suburban high school treat it as a last resort - some won't even visit. My son is attending as he is a business major and he received 3 scholarships and entry into their high quality honors college. But many look down on his choice. Or think we're cheap parents. I think kids (and parents) are a bit spoiled these days as well as overly concerned about prestige. They don't appreciate what's in their own backyard...(except for maybe UVA, UNC, Cal, and UMich).</p>
<p>toneranger - You are probably right. I guess because I grew up in the state of Virginia I just assume that every state has the same focus and pride in the state college/university system, except for the state of MA. I am just so frustrated by what I see here. I see so many bright, energetic young people going to public colleges in other states (one of my own included) and I just don't see the pride and spirit from UMass students that I see from those at other public institutions (your own Penn State, for example).</p>
<p>There isn't pride and spirit from Umass students...unless you count the fact that they pride themselves on their "ZooMass" label (even have a few websites about this) and their high ranking in national statistics of biggest party schools.</p>
<p>It cheeses me off actually, to live in such an educationally astute state with such an ass backward public higher ed system.</p>
<p>Boy am I glad to see someone else trashing the UMASS system LOL - besides me............ neither of my kiddos would even consider any of the UMASS campuses - both went to mid-atlantic states.</p>
<p>UMASS is supposedly making that push up the ladder - ahem - for more national recognition - but until the state of MA fixes the broken system regarding the UNIV/STATE school system here - it will never make it beyond where it is. The state $$bins here just have no damn clue about how bad our flagship Univ really is - altho they do somehow - have a great sports management program.</p>
<p>Seems also to becoming a more numbers driven school now too - thank you Gov'na - and Mr. Bulger..........<<past tense.</p>
<p>It is pretty easy to understand why UMass is a mess.The state legislature consists of graduates of private Boston law schools; they have NO warm, fuzzy feelings for the Amherst campus, and most have probably never even been there. It doesn't help that the economics dept is off-the-wall. Beautiful area to live in, though. And, I am told that they have started an honors college-within-a-college thing, and are hoping to attract good students. Hope it helps, but I think there is little hope unless the state capital is moved out of Boston.</p>